another mad idea

[vr6turbo 27]

thinking about getting an electric supercharger and fitting it in line on the intercooler piping to try to reduce lag

if a micro switch was fitted to activate the elecric supercharger at WOT.

may be fit 2, one either side of the intercooler or charge cooler, the other question is would they restrict the turbo air flow when it reaches higher boost.

1st problem would be the amount of current they use 40amps each

would sound good though,

[tubby 0]

I WOULDNT WASTE MY MONEY ON AN ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER DUDE THEY ARE KACK.

I`M SURE A FEW OTHERS WOULD AGREE.

VIRGIN

[vr6turbo 27]

fair enough its a matter of having more money than brains then!!

have you seen 1 running?

the day the boffins produce one that makes serious boost will be agreat day,

[FishWick 21]

Electric supercharging is the right step forward imo, but to generate enough boost, they'd need VERY powerful motors, so the alternator drain would be immense, almost like having a mechanical supercharger there in the first place, LOL! Until light, ultra efficient motors come down to mainstream prices, it's not going to happen.

Why not just run a Vortech and a turbo? How come you've got lag? What turbo are you using?

[Bazmcc 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like you have a massive intercooler. This big air volume is causing your lag. So you could either use a smaller intercooler or smaller pipes or get a larger turbo.

[jon@vagworx 0]

Buy a GT30RS that will get rid of your lag problems;)

[vr6turbo 27]

i wish i could afford one,i have since taken the intecooler off as the front of the car has been refurbed. i wanted to go for a stealth look, and have been researching charge coolers,

schimmel have a kit for about a grand,again too much, and i have to relocate my battery.

i am undecided as some people claim they work more efficiently than a large intercooler, and create less lag.

Due to the shorter distance between the turbo outlet and throttle body.

others say they are too restrictive.

what do you guys think?

[jon@vagworx 0]

i wish i could afford one' date='i have since taken the intecooler off as the front of the car has been refurbed. i wanted to go for a stealth look, and have been researching charge coolers,

schimmel have a kit for about a grand,again too much, and i have to relocate my battery.

i am undecided as some people claim they work more efficiently than a large intercooler, and create less lag.

Due to the shorter distance between the turbo outlet and throttle body.

others say they are too restrictive.

what do you guys think?

[/quote']

Schimmell do get some good results out of their charge coolers and they look the nuts. Also as you say, they reduce lag due to pipework being shorter.

The biggest problem is the ammount of water needed, ie once the water heats up it takes a long time to get cold again. Obviously the more water the longer it takes to heat up, but the harder it is to get cold!!!

Imo, i'm not convinced for three reasons-

1 - The cost for the setup and the cost/time to install it all.

2 - Reliability, baisically more to go wrong (intercoolers don't go wrong!!!) ie pump etc

And 3 - Weight, lots of kit = weight + the water has to go somewhere, so you end up with a heavy tank load of water in the boot.

[matth76 1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like you have a massive intercooler. This big air volume is causing your lag. So you could either use a smaller intercooler or smaller pipes or get a larger turbo.

The lag is created by the turbo spooling up too slowly (a characteristic of big turbos) or the piping from a front mount intercoolers being fairly long. A bigger turbo will have a lot more turbo lag. Smaller turbos spool up quicker and have far less lag. A bigger intercooler helps to reduce your charge temps and can only be a good thing - a bigger intercooler does not affect lag.. the piping does though. The shorter it is the less lag you have.

Whats your power band mate...i.e when does the turbo cut in? On average most turbos will cut in around the 3 to 3.5k mark, depending on how big they are and what power you are running. Some of the huge power skylines have a very small power band where their large turbo cuts in only above 5-6k revs! Not very good for the road or track but excellent for straight quarter miles.

[vr6turbo 27]

turbo pressure starts to build at 2600 so its relativly early, and i hit full boost pressure at 3800.the turbo i am using is a to4e turbonetics.

and works very well.

as you said the piping will make a big difference in response, so the set up i want to use for ideas is the Bill Schimmel vr6 turbo,

[vr6turbo 27]

there again Millsy has put a good case against charge coolers

i have heard from the escort turbo guys that the people who have fitted the charge cooler generally are out performed on the rollers by the big intercooled cars.

They only use tiny tanks though, so the water would heat up pretty fast.

chargecooler.co.uk

have kits that look interesting. its a dilemma that may result in the flip of a coin

[J5KE F 0]

Just to let u know i'm in a similar problem with mine fella

Unfortunately i think its a trial and error situation, the nismo cooler i have just saps boost and restericts power.

I'm experimenting with the stage 3 (smaller) cooler re-routed to the front of the car. Charge cooler was an option, but as i'm now up to my ears in debt, i dont wanna spend any more than necessary

[vr6turbo 27]

the only way to do it properly would be to have a 10ltr tank in the boot, for the intercooler water, and try to cool the tank using a small cooling unit?

[FishWick 21]

Schimmel's chargecooler is the feckin nuts. Speak to him and find out why. I've ordered one and a ATP GT30R turbo (GT30 turbine/GT37 compressor). His cooler setup supports up to 700hp and has virtually no boost drop. I've seen 4psi drops across small air-air ICs, they're ineffecient.

The world's first 9 second FWD VW did not have air-air intercooling. It had the same Schimmel charge cooler I've ordered! :-)

Let's face it, Schimmel is one of the world's foremost authorities on 12V forced induction, producing 680WHP 12Vs with is eyes closed, so what ever he uses, I'm bloody using!!!!

Agreed, some poorly spec'd chargecoolers are wank. Schimmel uses the best pump available, alongside a good size prerad and a sizable remote tank with ice tray!! Let's not forget water is the most efficient thermal heat exchanger there is, which is why none of Shcimmel's cars have air-air intercooling.

Anyway, enough of the plugging....but with Tom and Bill's help, I will soon be enjoying some superb GT30R chargcooled action :-)

[jon@vagworx 0]

Schimmel's chargecooler is the feckin nuts. Speak to him and find out why. I've ordered one and a ATP GT30R turbo (GT30 turbine/GT37 compressor). His cooler setup supports up to 700hp and has virtually no boost drop. I've seen 4psi drops across small air-air ICs' date=' they're ineffecient.

The world's first 9 second FWD VW did not have air-air intercooling. It had the same Schimmel charge cooler I've ordered! :-)

Let's face it, Schimmel is one of the world's foremost authorities on 12V forced induction, producing 680WHP 12Vs with is eyes closed, so what ever he uses, I'm bloody using!!!!

Agreed, some poorly spec'd chargecoolers are wank. Schimmel uses the best pump available, alongside a good size prerad and a sizable remote tank with ice tray!! Let's not forget water is the most efficient thermal heat exchanger there is, which is why none of Shcimmel's cars have air-air intercooling.

Anyway, enough of the plugging....but with Tom and Bill's help, I will soon be enjoying some superb GT30R chargcooled action :-)

[/quote']

Agree with what your saying, but youve got to remember their last 600whp 12v cost 80,000 dollars to build

Obviously your not exactly on a tight budget, gt30r £1200, SPT chargecooler £850, lol, but some of us are

[jaysVR6 2]

I know what I'd do with $80,000!!! And it wouldn't involve a VW!!!

[FishWick 21]

Aye, you should see Bills 911!!

$80,000.... but only £700 of that is the chargecooler....and he uses the exact same one on the 600whp car ;-)

The reason chargecoolers can be ineffective are:-

Poor core design

Siting the core to close to the engine

Insufficient water tank size

Insufficient prerad size

Insufficient pump flow rate

Get those right and it's a sound cooling method.

[vr6turbo 27]

awesome i hope it all goes well, who will you get to remap

[FishWick 21]

ibiVR initially, then Stealth for fine tuning if need be! I'll see how it goes.

Should get all the kit by Wednesday and I'm sure I'll end up spreading it all out over the living room floor like I did with Lego when I was 5 :-) Can't wait!

[vr6turbo 27]

wooooohooo let us know how you get on

i rate the shimmel kit i have the short intake mani its a well made piece of kit,

I also like the chargecooler set up minimum pipe work is best.

would you consider a MAP sensor and stand alone ECU?

[Dave@AVT 0]

there again Millsy has put a good case against charge coolers

i have heard from the escort turbo guys that the people who have fitted the charge cooler generally are out performed on the rollers by the big intercooled cars.

They only use tiny tanks though' date=' so the water would heat up pretty fast.

chargecooler.co.uk

have kits that look interesting. its a dilemma that may result in the flip of a coin

[/quote']

Its nothing to do with the size of the tank (well it does help),its all mainly down to the poor Pace units that the Ford fraternity use.

Those cores are made in reverse, ie the water flows down the normal 'boost' channels you get in an intercooler, and the boost is blown across the fins that you have on a normal intercooler to trap the moving ambient air.. Hence why it doesnt work well, and gets too hot too quick.

Also, because they are multiple cores welded together, they are never lined up correctly, and this adds to the pressure drop problems people encounter.

To get maximum water volume in the system, you have to look at the piping in the system. This can hold more water than the rad, CC and tank put together, so you want to keep the pipe runs in the engine bay as LONG as possible. All my installs use 19mm hose minimum as this is the size of all the fittings, but a better trick to do is fit an inch long piece of 19mm to all the inlet outlets, and then run 25mm hosing on top, throughout the rest of the system.( the ID of the 25mm hose is the same as the OD of the 19mm, so it clamps up perfectly. Just upgrading from 19mm to 25mm is roughly a 80% increase in water volume, which is a huge amount, for no extra cost, but you need to have a good pump such as the Bosch to be able to cope with this...

Other obvious things is to use a good sized pre-rad, has to be ally, and permanently run a decent fan on the front of the pre-rad.

The thing with chargecoolers, is every body gets different results, as they usually don't do everything properly. A decent CC system is a sum of all its parts, if you scrimp on one its not going to meet its full expectations, whereas an intercooler is idiotproof.

People don't spend enough time making sure the system is bled properly, by bad placement of the filler tank, not getting it high enough, or simply not understanding that the way they have run pipes have caused air locks that simply will not go away..

On reflection, Im only seeing chargetemps around 13 degrees above ambient, even at levels above 20psi, but thats only if you build the CC system in the correct way..

Cheers

Dave

[FishWick 21]

Good info there, particularly on the water line bore sizing.

At a more basic level, what is more effective at cooling a burning hot piece of metal? Blowing on it (air - air) or pouring water over it (air - water)?

Obviously the latter, so air-water is better than air-air at a basic physics level, period.

Where it all goes wrong is people skimping on Rad and pump size as Dave says. And also, the intercooler core must not be mounted anywhere near the exhaust manifold, which is completely counter-productive.

So now that you've got a good IC core (such as Spearco) with 0.25psi drop (compared with 2-5 for air-air), what to blast water through it with?

Well, chargecooler.co.uk reckon their Bosch 1200 litre/hour pump is the best there is - incorrect. That's only 4.4 gallons per hour. What you want is a Mezieres pump, which blasts that water through at 20 gallons a minute, yes, a MINUTE.

With that pump (W136a or higher), a Spearco core and a setrab radiator you will be getting the best cooling available.

Chargecoolers get a bad name because so many gimps produce cr@ppy, ineffective kits, but the aforementioned proper components are the way to go.

[Dave@AVT 0]

Well' date=' chargecooler.co.uk reckon their Bosch 1200 litre/hour pump is the best there is - incorrect. That's only 4.4 gallons per hour. What you want is a Mezieres pump, which blasts that water through at 20 gallons a minute, yes, a MINUTE.

[/quote']

The Bosch is 4.4 GPM, not per hour...

That Meziere is a little overkill for a chargecooling system though, if its too fast and will push the water though the pre-rad too quickly for it to cool the water efficiently. It will also probably build up too much head pressure, which could cause leaks depending what fittings you are using.

The Bosch is ideal for a chargecooler system, the 1200l/min is a max figure (which is still a little too fast depending on the length and volume of the piping system) but with slight head pressure (say up to 5psi) this can be reduced. 800-1000 is and ideal flow rate...

Ive used them on rear engined Renault Alpines, and it takes 18 seconds for the water to do a full revolution from chargecooler, to rad and back to the chargecooler. Thats a decent amount of time.

Physically the Bosch pump is pretty much foolproof too. The Meziere can't be run dry for even a few seconds before failing, as its the traditional shaft and bearing type drive. These and the Davies Craig pumps have leaked as they have a seal that the drive has to run through. The Bosch is a full magnetic drive pump, meaning there is no mechanical link from the impeller to the motor, meaning no leaks, and no issues running 'dry' as the motordrive unit knows no different.

[FishWick 21]

The Meziere's is far from overkill and they don't leak. Ask Bill Schimmel how many he's had fail on him.

They are fine to run dry aswell as I've done it on mine with no issues.

Mezieres takes 2 seconds to do a complete circuit and there are no leaks at the fittings.

How can the water flow over it too fast? That's rubbish. The whole idea of chargecoolers is to get the heat out of the core as quickly as possible as the air path is MUCH shorter than an air-air system.

[Dave@AVT 0]

Mezieres takes 2 seconds to do a complete circuit and there are no leaks at the fittings.

How can the water flow over it too fast? That's rubbish. The whole idea of chargecoolers is to get the heat out of the core as quickly as possible as the air path is MUCH shorter than an air-air system.

There, youve said it, 2 seconds to do a complete circuit.

The whole reason why water is so good, is its ability not to increase in heat that quickly, but also the same issue is once its hot it is hard to cool down quickly, so if the water is flowing round a whole circuit in 2 seconds, how long is it passing through the rad, half a second?

As per the whole liquid to air phenomenon - water cools air very quickly, hence why we can get the water out of the core quickly, but also even if the flow is slower, it doesnt matter as water has such a high specific heat content, so will take a long time to actually heat up.....but what you are forgetting is we are using good old crap low SHC air to cool the water back down at the pre-rad end, so we don't want it flowing as 'fast as possible' as the air at the pre-rad won't cool it fast enough...

The Meziers 'can' leak and does rely on the water flowing through it for cooling. The Bosch cannot leak and doesnt rely on the water flowing through it for cooling.

There are many pumps on the market, just some do the job better than others.