TSR VF Charger kit with SMIC ?

[Kelster 0]

Tsr are doing the VF Supercharger kit etc, but instead of water cooling their stage 3 has a SMIC with claimed 305 BHP ? Surely, if that is the same SMIC as the 1.8T then the pressure drop of approx 2psi will make the Stage 3 boost the same pressure as the stage 2 ? Or is the Stage 3 really 12Psi boost with 2Psi lost through the SMIC ?

TSR Charger Kit

Just asking because if the SMIC is that good might go the SMIC / Charger option as I don't like the idea of water cooling (would prolly run out of water etc knowing me) and chargecooling looks more complicated. An intercooler would be nice an simple but I dont really want an in your face FMIC.

Anyway, that is my first question, I have a feeling I will have alot more as this Turbo / Supercharger idea is being fabricated in my brain.

Thanks in advance

[xyber 1]

Id speak to NS Racing mate, they are a main dealer for VF gear

[Kelster 0]

Thx Xyber

Will do. Was not planning on buying from TSR just interested in the option of a SMIC (stealthy) option. I like the idea of the Rotrex Charger actually as no sump drilling afaik and I am pretty sure I have not heard many kind words regarding the GIAC chip. But have not throw the idea of turboing just yet. Was planning on fitting the SP short runner in the meantime in preparation for either.

[xyber 1]

Vince will custom map a Rotrex but they need the compression lowering so swings and roundabouts on that one

I think I would go for a chargecooler over intercooler if the need was there, with water injection you just wire up a light to come on and flash on the dash when the tank gets low

[Eat this 2]

water injection is alot less hassle than you think

[kcw 1]

I think I'd just go for the water injection, and have a big tank if your worried about running out.

Question about that TSR kit in the picture where the hell is the boost piping going? Round the back of the engine then to where? Seems a bit daft, would be so mych better with a short runner so your not putting your nice cool air back over the exhaust.

[xyber 1]

yep, best off with a short runner, move the battery to the boot and in its place fit a chargecooler if you didnt go the water inj route

[Bobtrude 0]

How long does the water tank last when driving "normal"?

[Kelster 0]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I think if I ask enough questions I might get my head round which direction I wanna go

Xyber, if I run a 10 PSi pulley with Rotrex or a 10Psi pulley VF why would the Rotrex need the compression lowering and not the VF ? Surely 10 PSi is 10 PSi irrespective of whether it is a Rotrex, VF or a man with incredible lungs blowing in the air ?

And if someone could answer Bobtrude's question would be nice. I understand that water takes about 4 times the energy of air to warm up so in effect stays cooler longer etc but how effective is the pre-rad at cooling the water ? I guess that it can be 4 times smaller than an intercooler because of this. And the better flow rate must give better efficiency from the charger.

But after some thinking (ouch), surely the chargecooler can maintain the same cooling as an intercooler even on long drives. My thinking....an intercooler can only bring down the forced air temperature to the ambient air temperature if 100% efficient. And assuming that the pre-rad on the chargecooler can do the same to the water cooling the charge cooler if 100% efficient then effectively they should both manage the same job.

Again, assume 2 identical cars one charge cooled, one intercooled

If both cars are driving then they are both cooling the forced air to ambient (100% efficent again) so the water in the charge cooler should not in theory get warmer than ambient and neither should the intercooler's metal structure. Conversly, if both cars are sat in traffic then the heat of the forced air will heat up the intercool's metal structure quicker than the water in the chargecooler (thermodynamics). But if left long enough both should reach the same temperature.

So my conclusion (if I understand chargecoolers properly - gulp). Both should manage the same job but the chargecooler should be more efficient as there is aless pressure drop.

Final question.....can you chargecool a turbo ? I guess you can but why doesn't many people ?

[Devildub_06 0]

Nice logical question that, try this cap on for size. Just for the example of 2 cars sitting on the M25 for a long period, not moving, and getting nice and toasty say for example and hour, 25°C heat, and loads of people getting narked etc.

You're not going to be creating hardly any boost so heat soaked into the metalwork of both will be mostly a result of radiated heat from the engine (A supercharger turning at idle won't create a temperature massively above this).

By and large most people fit FMIC's so the heat radiated into this will be a lot less as it's further away from the engine, chargecoolers on the other hand usually have the exchanger mounted under the bonnet for compact packaging and so will be more suseptable to heat soak from the engine. Given this time frame depending on your water tank size (and the fact that this water will get a bit warm in the boot), heat from the engine will be absorbed into the exchanger, and then into your cooling water which will be circulating into the prerad, but won't be cooled due to no air flow, then out to your water tank. The FMIC may be also slightly warm at this point too. Now imagine the traffic has magically cleared and you can get up to 70 (mr officer) you've near enough cooled your FMIC right off, but you're still effectively still cooling the water down in your charge cooler, so the temperature differential between the charger and chargecooler is less than the charger and FMIC. This will be rendering the chargecooler's ability to cool the charge less effective than the FMIC until the water has been cooled sufficiently by the prerad.

Chargecoolers will do a better job with icecubes and freezing cold water in them, combined with less pressure drop, but the FMIC will come into it's own if you find yourself in lots of traffic jams.

To way up, intercooler systems are lighter as you don't have to lug around a tank of water, but chargecoolers when cold are more efficient

And yes you can chargecool turbos as well as s/c, I have previously done a (dare I say it) fiesta rs turbo which turned out rather well.

Have a funny feeling i'm gonna get my a-hole kicked by Kevhaywire for this lol!! :$

[Kelster 0]

Lol thx Devildub_06. Funnily enough I was driving to work today think about the post I posted as I was worrying that I had posted a load of garbage that made no sence. While going over my reasoning etc I came to a similar conclusion. I thought that if the water in the chargecooler increased to slightly above ambient for example then it would then take a pre-rad 4 times the size of an intercooler to reduce the temperature down as quick as an intercooler. But even with that, heat would be stored quite well in the chargecoolers water tank whereas the intercooler can shed the stored heat alot faster.

I remember Kevhaywire and 407BHP (something like that) arguing (ahem), debating this on the DIY Turbo thread.

Had forgot about the heat soak from the engine though. I must admit I am edging towards an intercooler again now. About 2 hours ago I was going chargecooler - dammit ! I guess there is just no right or wrong.

So I guess I am back to my original posting idea as to the effectiveness of the SMIC that the TSR kit uses. Anyone know ? Or should I get the cutters out eventually and carve up the bumper

[Devildub_06 0]

And then like a dipstick reads that he wants an SMIC doh!! But hope it helped somewhat!

[Kelster 0]

Nah Devil nps there. I am pretty new to this forced induction malarky so every bit of info I can lay my hands on will help me decide what to do. Your angle helped alot.

[FishWick 21]

TSR still show their VF kits as coming with the GIAC chip! As of 2 or 3 years ago, all UK bound VF kits were supplied without software (because the GIAC code was crap!).

Frankly, I wouldn't trust any company that can't get it's facts straight on it's adverts. It's sloppy. And to be honest, TSR don't have the best of reputations anyway!

The SMIC sits sort of horizontally in front of the gearbox and is fed by a maze of pipework, which doesn't sit particularly nicely on the car and is too close to the exhaust etc. Yep, the Stage 3 is actually 12psi, but you get 10psi at the throttle due to pressure losses.

Aquamist DDS3 comes with a float sender and deactivates the water injection pump if you run out, so there's no excuses :-) Given S/Cs boost progressively and a normal trigger for H20 injection is about 4-5psi, the water lasts for ages. A month at least.

Chargecoolers are more efficient because cooling hot metal with water is always going to be more efficient than blowing on it. CCs are also more consistent. They can go into and out of extended traffic conditions without much of an increase in intake temperature. Their consistency makes them good for dyno tuning aswell.

The ice cubes thing is just another string to their bow, but few people bother. It just gives you an edge on the 1/4 mile track. Look for a cage round the pump pickup in any good chargecooler tanks if this feature interests you. Most kits from America have it (stops the ice being sucked into the pump).

As for which is best, well, it's always debated. What ever suits your requirements and budget is the answer ;-)

I will say that poorly spec'd and implemented chargecoolers are the ones that give the technology a bad name..... and yep, you have to carry a lot of baggage around with them, c'est la vie! :-) But if your car is pulling 500hp, do you really think 15-20kg of chargecooler equipment is going to make a massive difference to acceleration? It ain't!

[Devildub_06 0]

Phew, thought I was going to get beats for what i wrote down lol!! I bow to the master

[FishWick 21]

Beats, LOL! :-)

Forums are good melting pots for ideas and discussion and people shouldn't be bollocked for getting something slightly wrong, imo. Most folk get the basic ideas.

Evening classes are the place to get 100% technical accuracies on the theories and practices :-)

[VR6BOY 2]

Chargecoolers all the way matey bodge in a big intercooler or fit a "cool" chargecooler