What turbo mainfold is this??

[Phat VR6 3]

Well said kev! I sent Kinetic motorsport an email about there manifold on a RHD VR6 and they sent this back! I wonder if he means he will sell me a kinetic manifold at a reduced price for testing, also for abit of advertising

Kev would you be interested in giving this ago as you need a new manifold and im STILL currently not far enough along to take this offer up

Im going to get back to him and see what kind of price he can offer

Tom

I have sold 4 to 5 vr6 kits in to the UK

I believe the manifold fits

I would be will to sell one for testing

Let me know

Shawn vanNeer

Kinetic Motorsport / Tech / R&D

p. 604.882.9962 ex.336 / f. 604.882.9965

kineticmotorsport.com

shawn.vanNeer@kineticmotorsport.com

[VR6Will 0]

To be fair' date=' I'm one of handful of people who uses their VRTs daily. Daily used cars always reveal weaknesses far sooner than weekend / monthly cars.[/quote']

i use my vrt daily and also run the SPA manifold....

...not had any problems with mine cracking or not fitting properly, i also know of other vr6 turbos using the same manifold again not having these problems

What egt's are you seeing kev?

The only real weakness i've found with vrt's is to be the 02a gearbox.

[pops 1]

same with me, only the gearbox is the weak point with the odd set of rods and i`ve had 2 SPA manifolds on 2 different cars with no problems,

[FishWick 21]

I wonder what's different about your manifolds then?

EGTs are the same as I saw with C2's software:-

~ 750 at a 90-95 mph cruise.

~ 850-900 at wide open throttle.

I would expect a purpose made manifold to handle those EGTs.

If EGTs were consistently too high over 25K, I'd expect to see other related issues, such as burnt out exhaust valves, detonation, etc etc.

It never pinks and I run it slightly rich on cruise, around 14.5AF, Timing is slightly higher than stock VR6 off boost.

Therefore I can only conclude the manifold was at fault, especially as it cracked in exactly the same place, twice, but I don't really want to bore people with all this again.

Tom, I'm pretty set on the ATP at the moment to be honest. I've asked Bill Schimmel to speak to ATP about getting a better one.

[VR6Will 0]

I wonder what's different about your manifolds then?

EGTs are the same as I saw with C2's software:-

~ 750 at a 90-95 mph cruise.

~ 850-900 at wide open throttle.

I would expect a purpose made manifold to handle those EGTs.

If EGTs were consistently too high over 25K' date=' I'd expect to see other related issues, such as burnt out exhaust valves, detonation, etc etc.

It never pinks and I run it slightly rich on cruise, around 14.5AF, Timing is slightly higher than stock VR6 off boost.

Therefore I can only conclude the manifold was at fault, especially as it cracked in exactly the same place, twice, but I don't really want to bore people with all this again.

Tom, I'm pretty set on the ATP at the moment to be honest. I've asked Bill Schimmel to speak to ATP about getting a better one.

[/quote']

To be perfectly honest with you Kev, I dont think there is any difference in the manifolds you use and others use. Why would someone go to all the effort making a copy of a 250-300 cast manifold?

You say you saw same EGTs with the C2 software - was that on a different car? I didn't think you had OBD2 running correctly to be able to test the C2 software sufficiently.

I remember seeing the following pic a little while ago and always stuck in my mind about how awesome it was, however spanking mine around at 17psi gets nowhere near as red and almost see through as yours did in that pic. To me that looks a little hotter than 850-900 deg C

But like you say, enough of this now. Some people have very good results with this manifold, others (although i only know of you - correct me if im wrong) dont.

You could bite the bullet and spend hundreds on a good tubular manifold, but possibly still have the same cracking issues.

[FishWick 21]

Why was the branding ground off my two manifolds then? Why would someone do that, let alone copy it? Why can't anyone decisively answer that? It's all well and good you piping up on here when ever SPA or C2 are mentioned with your "I'm alright Jack, must be you" attitude, but no one has an answer for that and until I get one, it will remain to be suspicious in my mind.

You know nothing about my C2 software situation. If I didn't have it running in such a state to gather EGT information, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

So what are your EGTs for comparison then? Are you one of these people who think the lower the EGT, the better?

That picture of the glowing wastegate pipe, was done under hard load on the dyno barely in boost, and if you know anything about mapping you'll know why it happened and how common it is.

And do you not think a thin stainless tube would glow before the manifold does? Not that the manifold did glow - at all - anyway.

I know of 3 other people who also had the same issues i did with the SPA manifold and that's before looking over the pond at some equally dissatisfied American customers' situations.

[FishWick 21]

And just taking it a little further, please confirm the following to be true of your manifold:-

1) The gasket alignment is perfect, including the T3 and wastegate holes. All the gasket compression ridges are pressing down onto metal, and not into a misaligned hole where they won't seal.

2) The manifold flanges are machined flat so that the exhaust studs aren't pulled out of the head when torquing the nuts.

3) The SPA Turbo logo is on runner 1.

If all that is true, then you have a different manifold, period.

[pops 1]

so it`s good to have any manifold looking like that ?

[Phat VR6 3]

so it`s good to have any manifold looking like that ?

Its the wastegate pipe.... Can just see the manni and it isn't nearly as red

What causes high EGT anyway? Running lean?

I think imo its totally blatant that kev brought two miss casts that didn't pass quality control due to thin walls, poor port matching and uneven flanges,

Hence why SPA ground there name of before scraping them

I think id be write in saying that many more of the same manifolds where sold buy the same person to people owning VRTs hence why kev ISN'T THE ONLY ONE that's had one fail

hopefully your SPA manifolds sourced direct from spa will be much more reliable?????

[VR6Will 0]

Why was the branding ground off my two manifolds then? Why would someone do that' date=' let alone copy it? Why can't anyone decisively answer that? It's all well and good you piping up on here when ever SPA or C2 are mentioned with your "I'm alright Jack, must be you" attitude, but no one has an answer for that and until I get one, it will remain to be suspicious in my mind.

[/quote']

Kev, you seem to have taken my original reply the wrong way as if it’s a personal attack on you. I'm sorry if my 'attitude' comes across like that, its not intended - I just want others who are thinking about the vrt conversion to know my experiences of living with a vrt as a daily driver, as its not actually a difficult conversion, and worth every penny in my opinion. I have been researching my project for a few years now and if it wasn't for the internet and peoples advice on forums such as this one I probably wouldn’t have got as far as I have and cherry picked what I think to be the best bits. I'm definitely not saying my way is the right or best way, but likewise with you, your way isn't always the right way for other people is it? But I'm deviating from the point here.

The only reason why I can think of is the supplier didn’t want people to know the make of the manifold and then source it elsewhere? - seems a little more realistic than them being copied!

You know nothing about my C2 software situation other than what Matt may have told you. If I didn't have it running in such a state to gather EGT information' date=' I wouldn't have mentioned it. There's a heck of a lot more I could divulge about that situation, but I'm not going to.

[/quote']

C2 haven't told me anything about your software situation - why would they? I'm only going on what I've read and interpreted on this and other forums, if you don’t tell the full story expect people to jump to conclusions.

So what are your EGTs for comparison then? Are you one of these people who think the lower the EGT' date=' the better?

[/quote']

I will get some EGTs readings for you soon - currently my car is having some modifications to the fuel pump, once that is sorted I'll be quite happy to post them up for comparison.

That picture of the glowing wastegate pipe' date=' was done under hard load on the dyno barely in boost, and if you know anything about mapping you'll know why it happened and how common it is.

And do you not think a thin stainless tube would glow before the manifold does? Not that the manifold did glow - at all - anyway.

[/quote']

I understand the basics of engine tuning - that’s the reason I've left it to people who do know about it! For some people a little bit of knowledge is sometimes not always a good thing. If you barely in boost your wastegate wouldn't be open and all the gases would be routed through the turbo not the wastegate, I'd say your wastegate is open in that pic. And yes of course a thin stainless tube would glow before a big cast manifold.

I know of 3 other people who also had the same issues i did with the SPA manifold and that's before looking over the pond at some equally dissatisfied American customers' situations.

I'm sorry I wasn't aware of other people have had the same cracking issues - I hadn't heard of or read of any other unhappy customers in this country (I did say correct me if I'm wrong). However' date=' my experiences are of five other people (not including myself) who have vrt's and use the SPA manifold and two more still to be finished. The ones which are running don't have an issue, not to say there's a possibility they or I wont though.

And just taking it a little further, please confirm the following to be true of your manifold:-

1) The gasket alignment is perfect, including the T3 and wastegate holes. All the gasket compression ridges are pressing down onto metal, and not into a misaligned hole where they won't seal.

2) The manifold flanges are machined flat so that the exhaust studs aren't pulled out of the head when torquing the nuts.

3) The SPA Turbo logo is on runner 1.

If all that is true, then you have a different manifold, period.

1) The gasket alignment wasn't perfect to the head, but did seal and wasn't too much of a worry to me, I didn't have any problems with the t3 or wastegate flanges.

2) The manifold flange was flat and I didn’t have an issue with the exhaust studs being pulled out when torqued down

3) My manifold also has the logo ground off

I'm fairly convinced we use the same manifold

[pops 1]

[blockquote]hopefully your SPA manifolds sourced direct from spa will be much more reliable????? [/blockquote]

i use the same as Wills and as Kevs

[Phat VR6 3]

pops and VR6will how many miles have you been running your manifolds for?

[pops 1]

15k on one with t70 in my black mk2, 2.5k on another in the mk1, my mate has a been running his vrt on the same manifold longer than my black mk2 gotta be closer to 30k his girlfriend uses it for work daily, but wots the point wot ever i say it`ll be wrong, i have not been there done that nor have the knowledge but i`ve probably been further than most

[LadVR 0]

Could it be there was a faulty batch made? theres not exactly 1000's of VRTs about so it would take a while for the suspect ones to surface?

[FishWick 21]

Will - Yes you're right, my response was a bit strong, sorry.

You're right, the wastegate was open in that picture. By barely in boost I meant low boost, 8psi in that instance.

I'm surprised you and pops think that is a bad thing tbh. It happens all the time, even on OE cars. I've been out thrashing my missus's standard Polo GTI (1.8T) and come back and seen the manifold and turbine housing glowing cherry red. That's a standard car with just 8psi. It does have a very small manifold though. Less metal, more liable to glow. Ditto with the WG dump tube.

Don't forget the wastegate pipes are usually lagged and the glowing isn't visible.

As I say that was on Stealth's dyno during mapping with the load turned right up, mid and full throttle. It's what you're supposed to do when mapping the high load points. Neither he or I were concerend by the glowing metal and in fact, Vince even said "Watch this, the manifold will start glowing" , so I took a pic of it :-)

Your manifold is a lot better than mine, hence why you've got some success with it. I would not be surprised if it cracks in the future though.

Phat VR6 - A few things affect EGT. Not enough timing + rich mixture and also an overly lean mixture. If EGT suddenly drops under load, you're more than likely pinking. Should hear it too.

At the end of day, a manifold designed to take a turbo's weight and heat should be able to withstand < 1000 deg temperatures no problem.

LAD VR - You could be right, a dodgy batch. I refuse to accept it's my application. Both manifolds cracked in the same place - right where all 6 runners converge, where it's hottest.

Being a daily driver (all year round) it might just have been something simple like sudden cooling from a water splash etc. Hard to say.

When I say mine is a daily, it's used 7 days a week, every week. 400 miles a week.

Who else does uses theirs that much?

I'm hoping the ATP will fair better but I'm certainly not using a SPA again, that's for sure.

As for grinding the name off, everywhere I've seen sell them has the name on. C2, Strictly Dubs, ebay (worldwide) and SPA themselves. It's only the ones IBIVR sold to us that I've seen with the names ground off. Then he vanished into thin air once they'd all been sold. Suspicious? I think so.

[sharky_70 0]

been offered a genuine SPA item for good money from someone who got it direct so hopefully that will be better

[FishWick 21]

Before it goes anywhere near your engine, lay the exhaust gaskets over the flange and make sure it all lines up properly.

Check the exhaust stud nut side of the flange and make sure it's machined flat.

Well, check out the "I'm cracking up" thread and see for yourself how bad they can be.

If it all looks good, you should be OK.

[sharky_70 0]

have done mate and im prepared to take it to a machine shop to get it checked out. thanks for the heads up

[FishWick 21]

Good luck.

Let me know how it works out and can you post some pics up? I'd like to see what a proper SPA looks like in terms of port alignment etc.

Cheers

[jims13 6]

yep, just had to take mine off beacuse off a loose stud in the head, and ive gone and snapped another one off because of the fitment off the manifold..ill be making the others a bit bigger, to ease fitment when i put it back on.

intrestingly my gasket does'nt line up excatly on all the ports..

mines a spa unit in stainless, for those that are intrested.

[Phat VR6 3]

been looking at R32s on ebay now lol.. same price as banging a turbo on the VR, Im always changing my mind lol

[FishWick 21]

And they bolt straight in. Even if retaining the factory ME7 management, a quick remap will give you 275-280hp. Food for thought.

Out of their natural environment, they sound demonic, especially with a 6 branch and BMC filter. A cross between a ducati 996 and a nascar V8.

[kcw 1]

And they bolt straight in. Even if retaining the factory ME7 management' date=' a quick remap will give you 275-280hp. Food for thought.

Out of their natural environment, they sound demonic, especially with a 6 branch and BMC filter. A cross between a ducati 996 and a nascar V8.

[/quote']

You talking about an R32 or a VRT? Either way that sounds awesome lol

[FishWick 21]

R32! Just following on from Phat's post!

[H13VYY 0]

how much would it cost to transplant a r32 in a mk3?