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lets talk about 24v turbo's...

sharky_70

By sharky_70,
in Engine Tuning

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sharky_70

sharky_70 0

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so i sacked off my VRT project a few months back and sold the lot. huge regret has ensued

but ive been thinking about going 2.8 24v for a while now, and recently starting thinking 'what the heck, turbo that instead' ;)

is it pretty much the same principle as 12v turbo? i mean the engine can take a certain amount of boost before you have to go forged? is it still along the lines of drop in a spcer, mani, tubby, uprated injectors and EPROM, FMIC and go play?

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FishWick

FishWick 21

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Yes, let's :-)

And yep, what you've said is all correct.

Funny you should bring this up as I have a 2.8 24V sat in my garage awaiting a role in life. It was always going to turboed, no question but I haven't yet decided whether to sell off my entire 12V Turbo setup including the mapped DTA management etc and start over with the 24V. Or just transfer the turbo and management etc over to the 24V, but obviously using the appropriate exhaust and intake manifolds.

I'm leaning towards the former plan because the 24V is going to need a whole new downpipe and everything, so the sale of one project should fund the new one in theory :-)

Anyway, I haven't decided whether to go forged either. Having lived with a VRT running < 15psi boost for nearly 3 years, that imo, is more than enough. Any more is just show boating and pointless in a FWD application imo. So I'm prob gonna go with the spacer job as the 2.8 24V is just as tank as the 12V.

Lots of options for the 2.8 aswell. As it's the strongest 24V engine, you can bolt on the R32 head and get the flow and the strength and imo, that makes the perfect motor for boost. You can also fit the R32 crank, mod the pistons and get a nice 3.0 engine using the standard bore.

24V MAFs blow quite easily with turbos, so I'd be looking at something like a Pro Maf, which can support 800hp - http://www.promracing.com/mass-air-meters-c-2/pro80-p-5

I think the factory ME7 management, remapped with that MAF is the way to go here aswell, but a standalone would work well also as you can manipulate the intake valve timing at your leisure to reduce the onset of boost and gain some midrange power :-)

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sharky_70

sharky_70 0

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Kev i basically posted this cos i knew you would have the answer!

ok, so you wouldnt necessarily have to go to a bigger MAF? just a stronger one? and would that work with higher flow injectors on the remap?

so im thinking that cos the capacity is the same, turbo choice is gonna be pretty much inline with the 12v

and again im guessing ATP is the way to go with the manifold

what about off the shelf DP's: likely to have similar clearance problems like some of the 12v stuff?

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FishWick

FishWick 21

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LOL, cheers mate! I've been quietly researching it in the background :-)

If you use the standard Bosch MAF, you'll need a 4" housing as per 12V turbo setups. I think we could probably use an Audi TT maf element in the housing, which measures flow in both directions, so will detect the flow of air from the recirc valve and adapt accordingly.

That was always an issue in the past with the S/C 12Vs causing part throttle snatching and was what led to the 'Mafless' map. But software hacks found a way round it in the end.

As for the Pro Maf, it is better and stronger but I don't know how it will interface with the Bosch Mangement as I've never used one, but C2 have used them with success. Not sure of the dimensions of it, but suspect it's 4" also if supports that much power.

As for turbo choice, remember the 24V has schitt loads more flow than the 12V, so you can afford to go a little larger without affecting spool up.

There aren't any off the shelf DPs for 24V converted FWD VWs mate, it'll be custom I'm afraid, unless someone like C2 come up with one. It's just a matter of time before someone does mate.

OK, for exhaust manifolds, there are a few choices:-

034 Motorsports - http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_85&products_id=18583

That one is also on ebay - http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbo-Kruemmer-T3-Flansch-VW-R32-Golf-V6-2-8L-3-2L-24V_W0QQitemZ180405899476QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item2a010790d4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

PagParts - http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=154&products_id=580

ATP - http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-200&Category_Code=VVWM

Kinetics Motorsport do one too, but there's no pic of it.

All of ATP's manifolds are cheaply made in China (as are many car parts these days), but quality seems good.

I think of those 3 I prefer 034 Motorsport one and they're a good company to deal with, but the ATP has the better Wastegate outlet and size. I'm not sure if the ATP one will clear RHD steering UJs, looks very close to me!

Intake manifolds are a problem in the Corrado due to slam panel / radiator clearance, but I think I know of one that might work and it's a HPA copy with the throttle pointing down which you can get on ebay, like this one - http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbokit-VW-Golf-IV-2-8-VR6-24V-Seat-Turbo-Kit-von-KWE_W0QQitemZ320349341698QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item4a964f0802&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

So yes mate, exactly the same drill as the 12V turbo, just different parts :-)

Oh and I don't think ARP do 24V head bolts yet, so you'll need Raceware ones, but they're just as good.

I'll be using Schimmel's 264 24V cams on mine also, be rude not to :-)

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sharky_70

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would there be that much difference between the 4mo and fwd DP's then? i know C2 in the US do one. wasnt the Bora over there FWD? i've see a few US bora 24vt set ups but dont go into detail of what DP and if FWD or 4mo. also C2 site doesnt have a pic so cant tell

but youve got a decent fab guy so no worries for you there!

its funny what you say about the mani's. i know people get their knickers in a twist about copy parts being made cheap in china, but where do they think all the other genuine stuff is made?! looked at the ATP one before and yeah the work on it looks better quality but does it really justify an extra $300 or whatever it was? not so sure

im sure ive see ARP studs for 24v, i'll come back with a link

well i just gotta find a decent motor to get + loom made up and ECU fiddled etc. if i can sort that for sub 1k i'll be happy!

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FishWick

FishWick 21

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Ah jolly good on the ARPs then!! It was Raceware or nothing last time I looked into it, but figured it the ARPs would be along sooner or later.

Seems the Racewares get bad reviews anyway, so it's just aswell!

I haven't looked at C2's website for ages but good stuff if they make a DP! 4WD & FWD DPs are totally different because the 4WD one has to route around the transfer box.

That ATP 24V manifold is actually designed for the very car you just mentioned, the FWD 02M gearboxed 24Vs :-) But their steering rack is on the other side, well away from the turbo.

My fab guy is always up for it but it's just the ball ache of cutting bits of pipe and taping them together, crawling under the car, working upside down and all that....I hate it tbh....I'd rather buy an off the shelf part and get a warranty :-)

The ATP manifolds are dirt cheap direct from china, but you have to buy a shed load of them!

I got burned by fake manifolds as you know, twice! But I have it on good authority the genuine SPA manifolds are tank. Just wish I knew that for definite at the time :-(

You should be able to score a full 2.8 setup for less than 1K. I paid £600 for my engine, loom and ECU mate. The motor's done about 130K mind, not that you can tell looking at the bores and valves!! They're all plenty in tolerance still.

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sharky_70

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ha ha its a whole new can of worms then not just going from lhd to rhd!

yeah for my 12v i had a genuine spa, it did look very nice. if the weight was anything to go by it was a good'n. had a feel of the sides too and felt pretty chucky. i know thats an issue with the fakes

ive been looking for a decent 24v now but people want silly money, not too shy of a realistic mk4 R32 price which in my book is insane

yeah i know what you mean about getting something off the shelf. mine would have to be bolt straight on, minimal fiddling. car has to be done in minimal time. annoying too cos i'll have to get a dp for running it stock and then another for FI

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FishWick

FishWick 21

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2.8 24Vs shouldn't be commanding big money at all! What sort of prices are you seeing?

My mate paid £1500 for an R32 with about 600 miles on it, so a decent 2.8 should come in well under that.

If I see a well priced 2.8 in my travels, I'll let you know.

I think with manifolds, the 034 Motosport one is looking the best candidate at the moment as it sits the turbo in more or less the same place as my ATP currently does, which is spot on. Turbo nice and easy to get to for maintenance and easier for the downpipe too, with good gear cable clearance.

Manifolds like the SPA turbo one and the ATP 24V which sit the turbo very low and on the right hand side makes the downpipe rub on the gearcables, or extremely close to them. One of my cables siezed solid because of it. Could barely change gear it got so bad!

So o34 or Pag parts wins so far. Just depends if you want to use the stock 24V intake or not, but if you do, you won't be able to run much more than 10psi because it flexes too much being made of plastic. Quite a few have actually burst apart!

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FishWick

FishWick 21

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Good point mate. Having looked at them again, I can see the following:-

034 Motorsports - Yep, no trouble there in terms of TIP on the offside, but now I'm wondering about the T3 flange being kicked up slightly. Will there be bonnet to turbo clearance issues?

PagParts - Could be a pain in the backside. It's designed for 4WD cars as the wastegate sits where the brake servo etc would be and the turbo sits with the cold side facing the nearside. Might work, but will be a lot more work than the 034 item.

ATP - Personally I would only use that if the stock intake is going to be used and if you saw the way the R32 intake flexes and balloons even on the naturally aspirated setup, you just wouldn't even consider using it for boost!!

Not so sure now, but I reckon the 034 one is the best of the 3.

Ideally, the ATP 12V manifold with 24V ports and stud holes would be absolutely perfect. Especially for me as I wouldn't have to redo the downpipe :-)

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FishWick

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There's a few flavours of 2.8 24V as far as I know....

Early coilpack with 1mb ECU

Later coil-over-plug 1mb ECU

Later coil-over-plug 2mb ECU

The "1mb" refers to the ME7 management type and revision and the later the management, the better in terms of remapping for a turbo.

Aside from the coil type, they are the same AFAIK.

Personally, I would favour the older coilpack engine because coil-over-plugs are notoriously unreliable on the standard engine, let alone when turboed!!

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UnitedMotorsport

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THere are a few versions of the 24v engine.

The 1st of which is coded either AUE or AQP. This engine has a coil pack rather than coil on plug. It also doesnt have true variable cam control - The inlet cam has 2 positions. This uses a Bosch ME7.1 ECU

The next engine is the BDE (3.2 is BFH.) This engine is coil on plug and has true variable cam control.This uses a Bosch ME7.1.1 ECU

The next one is the 3,2 (coded BUB) returnless fuel system engine, This is the MK5 R32 and Audi 3.2 engine. This engine uses a Bosch ME7.1.1 ECU, although it isnt compatible with the earlier ME7.1.1 ECU.

The best ~allround engine (for a conversion) I think is the BDE/BFH.

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