Why Schimmel intake?

[MarkGolf 6]

Why do these seem to be the manifolds to have?

A friend of mine who makes carbon intake systems for formula renault cars has one on a mk2 VRT and decided to flow tested against a spare standard intake of mine and he said that the original VR intake showed better and "even" flow results where the schimmel had improved flow to 4 and 6 but the rest, especially the back bank of cylinders were worse off so he's actually popping his schimmel up for sale and going to use his factory intake, would have ripped his arm off before but after that im not so sure about getting a schimmel...

[kcw 1]

Schimmels were used on some big power drag VRs like 6-700 hp were they not? So maybe at that kinda power/boost level the standard mani just didnt flow enough.

Most people on here/vrt owners swear by them.

[Radostormvr6 2]

schimmel intake makes shorter path from intercooler to the TB , less pipe work, makes less boost drop. Using SP charge cooler theres only 0.25psi drop , giving very good thorttle response.

Also gives you tidy install

[FishWick 21]

Shcimmel's intake has been subjected to much criticism over the years. Probably because of it's price. Seemingly expensive kit is usually always attacked by the DIY heros as a rip off, especially on the Vortex site :-)

For me it's the combination of being a proper cast piece and the research he put into it that sold it to me. And for the reasons stated by Shaun. It makes the boost path shorter and neater and the engine more responsive.

You see plenty of cut and shut specials out there, all claiming to be the best intake around, but none of them post up any dyno plots. Schimmel does though - http://www.spturbo.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=223

It moves the peak torque up 1000rpm, which is very useful for getting traction in a road car. More power = more acceleration and top speed, it's as simple as that :-)

The thing is though, it's impossible to get an intake that is all things to all men. They all have a shortfall somewhere in the rev range. Bill built his manifold to get more top end power and it works brilliantly. You could also build an intake with longer runners and a bigger plenum for more midrange, but there will be a sacrifice elsewhere in the rev range. Bill's intake is a good middle ground one imo. Sure you lose a little torque around 3000rpm, but if you have a quick spooling turbo you won't notice it that much.

You need to consider packaging aswell. It would be a thing of beauty to have an intake with lovely tuned runners and a perfectly balanced plenum for even air flow, but will it actually fit under the bonnet? In a Corrado VR6 at least, not a chance!!

I'm not disputing your mate's findings as that is very common with a lot of short intakes, but mine shows an even burn across all 6 plugs. Plug 6 is ever so slightly darker, but I can trim that out with my sequential injection. You won't get a perfect burn even with the standard intake. Lift the head off any high mileage 12V and the valve colour is never uniform across all 6 cylinders. Do the same on a 24V and they are all the same colour. Mainly because the rear injectors are half way down the ports, the ports all flow the same and the injectors are Bosch EV14, which are far superior to anything used on the 12V engine.

So you can invest all the cash you like into a perfect manifold for a 12V, but is it worth it when the head design is inherently flawed and can't flow a huge amount anyway? And where boost is concerned, a lot of the science of induction tuning goes out the window anyway.

With any short intake, you need injectors with very good atomisation to compensate for the slower gas speed at low rpms. So your mate may not like the intake, but he needs to look at his install as a whole and not single out the intake as the weak point, because in every other VRT I've seen with a shcimmel intake, the results have been excellent.

Other intakes for your consideration:-

SPA - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4621296

C2 Quickflow - https://www.c2motorsports.net/shop/p-59-mk3-12v-vr6.aspx

I've seen plenty of others all welded around chopped up standard runners which look OK too, although they're mostly all made by Vortexers.

[kcw 1]

Going by those links Schimmel was the only option as the C2 one doesn't fit a rado and the spa/hpa/hgp is "the worst manifold ever made" in terms of flow lol

[FishWick 21]

Exactly mate. It's all about compromise. If you're fitting a decent size turbo you simply cannot use the stock intake manifold, so a short runner is the only option. And then you have to find one that fits!

Luckily Schimmel is a Corrado fan and developed all this products on that car, so they will also fit a MK3/MK4 easily :-)

[kcw 1]

Could also run one of these

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-VR6-Turbo-Ansaugbruecke-Kruemmer-Bruecke-2-8-2-9-L_W0QQitemZ250519672776QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTeile_ohne_Strassenzulassung?hash=item3a5422d7c8

Trix uses that or a very similar one on his vrt. Shame about that Spa one I always wanted to run that to hide the boost pipes and throttle body.

[MarkGolf 6]

Good enough for me, schimmel it is!

[FishWick 21]

Could also run one of these

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-VR6-Turbo-Ansaugbruecke-Kruemmer-Bruecke-2-8-2-9-L_W0QQitemZ250519672776QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTeile_ohne_Strassenzulassung?hash=item3a5422d7c8

Trix uses that or a very similar one on his vrt. Shame about that Spa one I always wanted to run that to hide the boost pipes and throttle body.

That doesn't look too bad actually! Plenum volume looks a little small, but it is tapered for even air flow though.

With something like that at that price level, you're not sure how much science has been applied to it or whether it's just been cobbled together onto stock runners. Intake tuning is bloody complicated, especially on an awkward engine like the VR6! It still baffles me.

[Phat VR6 3]

Could also run one of these

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-VR6-Turbo-Ansaugbruecke-Kruemmer-Bruecke-2-8-2-9-L_W0QQitemZ250519672776QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTeile_ohne_Strassenzulassung?hash=item3a5422d7c8

Trix uses that or a very similar one on his vrt. Shame about that Spa one I always wanted to run that to hide the boost pipes and throttle body.

With something like that at that price level' date=' you're not sure how much science has been applied to it or whether it's just been cobbled together onto stock runners.

[/quote']

which it has.

I believe the science and the only reason not to use a standard intake is the fact you can't fit a big turbo with an ATP manni imo.

Having runner compensation will increase power. It has to. it follows the laws. Its why they include it in the standard inlet in the first place and its why all engine manufactures if possible keep runner lengths the same length if possible.

Also the runner lengths are technically to short. Look at a 1.8T and all other turbo engine runner lengths. They ALL have much longer runners than the schimmel intake. Schimmels intake runner lengths is tuned to something silly like 13,000 rpm.

Of course you can still run silly BHP with them.

But what does your money get you???? Nothing really

You even ask schimmel dude him self and C2 ect and i bet he will admit that adding runner compensation and longer tunned runners will increase power. and the reason for not doing it is cost and easy of production. saving 2 foot in boost piping isn't making a massive difference.

Cut down a 1.8 T mannifold. Make number 1 and 4 longer and see if you gain power

[Phat VR6 3]

Good enough for me' date=' schimmel it is!

[/quote']

nothing wrong with yours imo

[AJmk2 2]

Im currently developing a short runner intake manifold for my university project , which may be a 'cut and shut' but i will be computer modelling the unit and its flow.

Depends how much extra the milling will cost and further benefits that can be gained from starting with a totally new unit.

Im starting with N/A and will have a before and after dyno print out.

Id imagine schimmel will have also done there research especially with there proven gains.

Il be sure to undercut the competition for full members

[kcw 1]

Could also run one of these

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-VR6-Turbo-Ansaugbruecke-Kruemmer-Bruecke-2-8-2-9-L_W0QQitemZ250519672776QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTeile_ohne_Strassenzulassung?hash=item3a5422d7c8

Trix uses that or a very similar one on his vrt. Shame about that Spa one I always wanted to run that to hide the boost pipes and throttle body.

That doesn't look too bad actually! Plenum volume looks a little small' date=' but it is tapered for even air flow though.

With something like that at that price level, you're not sure how much science has been applied to it or whether it's just been cobbled together onto stock runners. Intake tuning is bloody complicated, especially on an awkward engine like the VR6! It still baffles me.

[/quote']

I know hat you mean about the plenum it does look a little small, And I think it is a tube welding on to original runners, but there's loads of them on ebay.de

[Phat VR6 3]

Could also run one of these

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-VR6-Turbo-Ansaugbruecke-Kruemmer-Bruecke-2-8-2-9-L_W0QQitemZ250519672776QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTeile_ohne_Strassenzulassung?hash=item3a5422d7c8

Trix uses that or a very similar one on his vrt. Shame about that Spa one I always wanted to run that to hide the boost pipes and throttle body.

That doesn't look too bad actually! Plenum volume looks a little small' date=' but it is tapered for even air flow though.

With something like that at that price level, you're not sure how much science has been applied to it or whether it's just been cobbled together onto stock runners. Intake tuning is bloody complicated, especially on an awkward engine like the VR6! It still baffles me.

[/quote']

I know hat you mean about the plenum it does look a little small, And I think it is a tube welding on to original runners, but there's loads of them on ebay.de

why use that over a standard inlet manifold though?

[kcw 1]

As Kev said depends on how your turbo is mounted and how big it is.

If they standard mani flows so well I'll stick with it free's up money for elsewhere.

[Radostormvr6 2]

You could try these guys http://www.dgautotech.com/dgauto/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=75 there very good

[FishWick 21]

I believe the science and the only reason not to use a standard intake is the fact you can't fit a big turbo with an ATP manni imo.

Having runner compensation will increase power. It has to. it follows the laws. Its why they include it in the standard inlet in the first place and its why all engine manufactures if possible keep runner lengths the same length if possible.

Also the runner lengths are technically to short. Look at a 1.8T and all other turbo engine runner lengths. They ALL have much longer runners than the schimmel intake. Schimmels intake runner lengths is tuned to something silly like 13' date='000 rpm.

Of course you can still run silly BHP with them.

But what does your money get you???? Nothing really

You even ask schimmel dude him self and C2 ect and i bet he will admit that adding runner compensation and longer tunned runners will increase power. and the reason for not doing it is cost and easy of production. saving 2 foot in boost piping isn't making a massive difference.

Cut down a 1.8 T mannifold. Make number 1 and 4 longer and see if you gain power

[/quote']

Agree with that but as I said on the Vortex, someone needs to put their money where their mouth is and actually bring this mythical "perfect manifold" to life and do some back-to-back dyno comparisons with 'lesser' manifolds like Schimmel's. They're talking on there of losing 100whp from the same boost pressure using the 'incorrect' manifold, which is unsubstantiated cobblers. I agree there can be gains with using a manifiold with longer runners but the problem as I've already said is making it fit in a Corrado, which has the least space of all the VR6 powered VWs. That was the car Schimmel was doing his early 1/4 miles in and developed the manifold for.

As already said, if you're using the ATP manifold with something like a GT35 and a chargecooler, it's just not feasible to use the stock intake.

I've also compared dyno plots of VRTs using the stock intake and a short runner and the stock intake just makes a massive lump of torque that breaks traction too easily and then falls off at the top end. Short runner intakes show a flatter, more linear power curve and a much better top end. So it's horses for courses.

In all honesty I would love to try the stock intake or a shorty with longer runners if someone would just make one, but getting them to fit is an issue. Remember some of our cars are dailys and we can't be relocating essential items to prove a point. It has be reliable and the Schimmel intake is and it drives nice on the road, so I don't see what the issue is tbh.

[Phat VR6 3]

I understand where your coming from. Making less torque lower down might make it a little nicer to drive and it defiantly makes a AWIC neater easyer or even makes it possible in the first place. I think 100whp is way over the top tbh

comparing builds with a standard inlet and ones with schimmels isn't fair as you would assume that standard inlets build is on a budget and there for using a cheaper smaller stage 1 kinetics turbo or something similar. anyone with a schimmel is more lightly to have a more serious big turbo.

Theres no issue with using them... its more the cast of if there worth the money or if there any reason to use them

[lowvr 0]

can anyone explain what is about the hgp manifolds that makes them flow soo poorly and if there is any real evidence of this?

[FishWick 21]

It doesn't really have much of a plenum volume and the runners are short but that's not necessarily a bad thing. As for evidence, it's a debate you'll need to get into with the Vortexers mate. Lot's of talk of improvments, but no evidence to back it up!

They don't seem to understand that some people LIKE, or WANT the characteristics of a shortie intake because they've made other changes to their car to make it more responsive in the midrange anyway, such as shorter gearing, light flywheels, quick spooling turbos etc etc.

The VR6 is quite a large capacity engine in a ~1200Kg car remember, so doesn't need much more bottom end torque imo!

[lowvr 0]

thanx for the response kev

i get what you mean about the design flaws of the hgp not all being a bad thing because its not like a vr turbo needs that extra power in that part of the rev range - thats what someone with a hgp turbo set up on their corrado was telling me - he explained to me that the fact theat the voilent power band range kicks ina little later means that it gave the little fwd car an oppertunty to gain some grip - he also felt it was th reason why he wasn't shreddign through gearboxes

[Phat VR6 3]

It a lot of money to de tune the lower / Midrange of the powerband,

Is there any proof of power gains up top... not saying there isn't. just wondering

[lowvr 0]

but dont forget its advantages:

shorter intercooler piping which will help with throttle response

and potentially i very clean decluttered bay

[FishWick 21]

It a lot of money to de tune the lower / Midrange of the powerband' date=' [/quote']

My car is loads quicker, off boost, than my mate's standard VR6 with 263 cams so I don't need or want loads more bottom end torque.

I've seen what too much torque at the bottom end achieves - i.e. R32 conversions - which is too much wheelspin and is why VW put it in a 4WD platform.

Lowvr is right. Moving the torque band further up the revs is deliberate for some people as it's where they WANT the torque ;-)

Quite a few VRTs I know of that have broken gearboxes were using the standard intake. My gearbox is still holding up fine after 3 years. Simply put - sensible boost for the road, sensible torque band, sensible mapping.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with a half way house between stock and a shortie though, just to see how it affects things.

Is there any proof of power gains up top... not saying there isn't. just wondering

Yeah, Schimmel is the only shortie maker I've seen provide a dyno plot so far. Standard engine with a panel filter, before and after - http://www.spturbo.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=223

[Phat VR6 3]

that dyno plot shows a gain in the lower end and only so tiny drop in the mid so :S

All I no is im going to stay with the standard when i go turbo. and only change when somethings been proven, imo the answer to the best intake for a turbo VR is still a bit of a grey area