Supercharger v Turbo????

[spadam 7]

Was only talking to craig about this saturday night. Ive yet to go out in a supercharged vr so still undecided which route to take. If i can do turbo cheaply enough i may well go that route. Should be going to jakes soon for a ride in the vento.

[russj249 2]

i'm trying to work this question out too. i know i want the turbo and a have one at home, but the amount of work puts me off. all oil lines and water lines etc

my Turbo's a t61, with same compressor housing as gt35, but with a bigger divided turbine housing. i want good power but how much power and torque would break traction without lsd? and how much psi would it take to make that figure?

just for an example, would 300BHP and maybe around the same torque be useable on good tyres without spinning? and i know every engine is different, but roughly what psi would you need for that figure?

[golfrabbit33 0]

by kev h

Someone mentioned 'lag' further back but that is the most common misconception about turbos often said by people who've never tried a proper turbo engine, let alone a VR6 turbo.

pmsl , whats lag ? lol not in my vrt

[FishWick 21]

I hope I don't come across as condascending or lecturey etc as that isn't my intention!

It's just that I've seen so many times people try a particular modification and not been that happy with it. All I'm trying to do is help people make the right decision first time round because it's soooooooo much cheaper in the long run!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti S/Cs. The Rotrex is a nice bit of kit and I've seen some good results from them, but if people want uber midrange grunt, it's gotta be a turbo :-)

Oil lines etc aren't difficult. I didn't know anything about turbos either when I did mine, but I just got on with it, learned on the job, learned from forums, made some mistakes (plenty!) and come out the other end a bit wiser and a lot poorer, but the experience has been invaluable :-) I can take what I've learned onto any car pretty much. The principals are the same.

Turbos are definitely more work initially but 'drive in - drive out' installs like Stealth's for £4K takes all the sting out of the complication and cost of DIY. And you've got a hardware setup there that's capable of over 500hp if the gearbox holds out.

What boost spins up the wheels? Difficult to say, but you can get gear and rpm dependant boost controllers, so it's not an issue. Any car will spin it's wheels if provoked.

[Ben Seabrook 4]

I hope I don't come across as condascending or lecturey etc as that isn't my intention!

nah never mate, always to the point and full of fact rather than hearsay, exactly what people need and want to hear

[Dave_ciw 507]

I hope I don't come across as condascending or lecturey etc as that isn't my intention!

nah never mate' date=' always to the point and full of fact rather than hearsay, exactly what people need and want to hear

[/quote']

Well done Kev I had it all planned out in my head were I was taking my new highline. Then along pops you with your knowledge and wisdom and literally throws a spanner in the works. I have all the major players which I will need either way the ARP head studs the 3 piece gasket intercooler bigger HT leads etc etc. I was definate set on charger because I built an AGU 1.8T with remap and other bits was running 225 or just over but was no where near as fun to drive as a stock VR6. It was just a completely different machine.

[russj249 2]

what intercooler are you using dave?

like you i have the main bits, turbo, manifold, de comp gasket etc, but need to start sorting out intercooler and pipework soon. i know there's not much room behind the bumper so dreading trying to fit it somewhere.

[Dave_ciw 507]

I bought a Forge FMIC for my previous VR6 when I planned to turbo it But ended up fitting it to my mk4 1.8T which I have put through the business for dismantling. So I will be using that. I have also got a 2.9 cylinder head I plan to have rebuilt in the next couple of weeks. however should I decide on the turbo for more powerr I may need a spacer but this is were it all gets above my head lol

[Dave_ciw 507]

what intercooler are you using dave?

like you i have the main bits' date=' turbo, manifold, de comp gasket etc, but need to start sorting out intercooler and pipework soon. i know there's not much room behind the bumper so dreading trying to fit it somewhere.

[/quote']

Was up your neck of the woods last month I went to see Lee Nelson twice in Wolverhampton...

[craggsy 91]

Supercharging will always have a place in VR6 ownership. It's good useable power and relatively cheap and easily reversible. A lot of people will be happy with circa 280bhp in a daily driver, like Ben really. Others will always chase numbers and build high boost turbo cars. As Kev so rightly says over engineer the car to be reliable, and if you go turbo and only want 300bhp you may as well aim for 400 as it will cost basically the same. Plus when you have 300 you will want more, I did with the VR but shell was rusting so went out and bought the 32, and I still want more from it which means new rods and pistons and getting rid if the plastic intake and upping the boost. My problem is I'm soooo close to 500bhp that I have the itch to get it there, but that's boost for ya lol

[bungy 2]

I will add my pennies worth as I am going the charger route and as Kev has already mentioned you need to understand what it is that you want from your car and power delivery. I want a charger for particular reasons and above all think it will suit how I'm setting my car up.

[Dave_ciw 507]

I know the 1.06ar is better but would this suit with its .63 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GT35R-GT35-Ball-Bearing-Turbo-Anti-Surge-T3-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19c19c2959QQitemZ110622419289QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_2652wt_1165

[FishWick 21]

Sorry for spannering your works mate :-)

1.06 housing on the GT35R slows the spool up approx 500rpm, but the trade off is more top end power, especially if you've got 268 cams as well!

If I was to build a MK2 VRT, that is exactly the combo I would use to take advantate of the car's low weight!

For the heavier MK3 and Corrado, the 0.82 with SP 263 cams is a nice compromise, balancing midrange torque and top end shove pretty much spot on for a road car, in my opinion :-)

You would love the mid range thump of the 0.63 but you would also be entering into the gearbox breaking zone and the top end will suffer.

Nice choice though. The 35R is a perfect match to the VR6. Try and get one with a 3" V band outlet though as it makes exhaust plumbing a lot easier. And that Anti-Surge housing isn't needed on a the VR6, plus that style of housing makes a lot of noise.

[FishWick 21]

Supercharging will always have a place in VR6 ownership. It's good useable power and relatively cheap and easily reversible. A lot of people will be happy with circa 280bhp in a daily driver' date=' like Ben really. Others will always chase numbers and build high boost turbo cars. As Kev so rightly says over engineer the car to be reliable, and if you go turbo and only want 300bhp you may as well aim for 400 as it will cost basically the same. Plus when you have 300 you will want more, I did with the VR but shell was rusting so went out and bought the 32, and I still want more from it which means new rods and pistons and getting rid if the plastic intake and upping the boost. My problem is I'm soooo close to 500bhp that I have the itch to get it there, but that's boost for ya lol

[/quote']

Good man! 500hp is a nice number for the 32. Properly quick! :-)

Adding 100hp to a Golf or Corrado is giggles a plenty (MK2 even more so!), but adding 100hp to a 32 doesn't give you so much as it's a lot heavier and more refined, so you're in that power-to-weight trap now mate :-) And everything R32 turbo has a massive scene tax attached to it. You only have to look at HGP's prices to see that!!

Gotta be done though! With your 4x4 traction and close ratio gears, it's going to be mental fast :-)

[craggsy 91]

Need to get diesel 1st and 2nd I think is the favoured mod as 1st is over far to quick

[UnitedMotorsport 55]

Putting diesel final drive in our R32 Turbo made it a completely different car.

[craggsy 91]

Putting diesel final drive in our R32 Turbo made it a completely different car.

I will be doing something with the box next year I think, it needs it

[FishWick 21]

DSG :-)

[Jamminvr6storm 0]

... And you've got a hardware setup there that's capable of over 500hp if the gearbox holds out.

I for one can confirm that a standard 02A box doesnt last very long with that kind of power... Mine lasted 5000 miles with circa 500bhp

[craggsy 91]

DSG :-)

Would be nice by just the diesel fd as Matt says. Just to give me longer gearing. Will find another box to do it tho

[Ben Seabrook 4]

Supercharging will always have a place in VR6 ownership. It's good useable power and relatively cheap and easily reversible. A lot of people will be happy with circa 280bhp in a daily driver' date=' like Ben really.

[/quote']

completley agree, it depends what you ultimatley want to do with the car - drag, track, daily etc etc for me it was an easy choice. I wanted a quick, low maintenance daily and I dont have the mechanical knowledge to do a turbo install but even I can put in a charger so it still meant I could maintain the car myself plus I am a showoff and therefore noise was a factor and inmo the charger sounds unbeatable in a VR :)

[Dave_ciw 507]

Sorry for spannering your works mate :-)

Dont worry about it Im quite excited now for the build

Is this a better turbo then?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-70-96M-turbocharger-T4-turbo-GT40-GT40R-70-96-/220490480001?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item335641b981#ht_9202wt_939

So your recommending a 0.83 tub. Also I have a corrado head I have stripped today and sending it off to be skimmed. I am having new valves and lifters and all the rest. What I want to know is it worth me sending off my turbo manifold with it and having the head ported to match and polished or is this just wasted money????

[FishWick 21]

I would get a GT35R mate, or a T60-1 if you can't stretch that far. That SPA unit is unlikely to put in anywhere near as long a service life as a proper Garrett.

Don't bother porting / polishing the exhaust manifold or exhaust ports in the head, but you could get the head's intake ports gasket matched though. That's pretty much all the head flowing work you need to do. Concentrate more on bigger valves and good cams instead if the budget allows!

[Dave_ciw 507]

I would get a GT35R mate' date=' or a T60-1 if you can't stretch that far. That SPA unit is unlikely to put in anywhere near as long a service life as a proper Garrett.

Don't bother porting / polishing the exhaust manifold or exhaust ports in the head, but you could get the head's intake ports gasket matched though. That's pretty much all the head flowing work you need to do. Concentrate more on bigger valves and good cams instead if the budget allows!

[/quote']

Well I got onto one of my suppliers for stock valves and they came back to me today saying unavailable. They cant even get me stock ones. So if I get bigger valves do I need to do more work to the head? Can you recommend a place to source the valve.

Also if I get the T60-1 with a 1.06 AR Turbo and use my ARP head studs with a 3 piece gasket. Should I put a spacer plate in to lower compression? I have spoke to my mechanic regarding rings and replacing those he agrees I should if the engine is out the head is off and the sump is being tapped. But he is saying hew wont fit them as they can brake when doing it is this something I can attempt???

Really Really sorry for Hijacking this thread but I only want to do this engine once so I want to get it right.

Money isnt so much an issue as it will be done over time I may also buy a 2nd engine but I am looking to have it finished mid next year so I have time. Was thinking of this little set http://www.techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_14_101_427_341&products_id=795&zenid=75c9a86119841fd8da5af6ba4431f8f9

Cheers for the info Kev

[FishWick 21]

I use 1mm bigger ferrea valves in mine - http://www.ferrea.com/ Stainless inlet, Inconel exhaust.

Supertech are good too - http://www.supertechperformance.com/

Your machinist should be able to get either.

Depending on how large you go with the valves, you may need bigger valve seats as well. It depends how much meat can be removed from stock seats without going to thin.

Yes you will need to lower the compression with an 8.5:1 decompression plate.

If your mechanic thinks he is going to break the piston rings, find another mehcanic!!

They are easy to install, plenty of info on Google about it. You can use a VR6 specific (angled) ring compressor or some people make do with large mikalor clamps or normal ring compressors.

VR6 one - http://www.toolwarehaus.com/wbstore/main.asp?action=PROD&PROD=FL-VW3278&CTMP=1&LowCt=0

You'll be wanting to check the bores of ovalisation and hone them before putting new rings in though, otherwise it's a pointless excercise.

There's a guy selling a 3.0 built block on the Corrado forum for £2K. 83mm JE Pistons and forged rods, all new bearings etc, never run.

Could be an option for you if budget isn't much of an issue? :-)