Help need to get me started. 2.8 24v

[the dog 3]

Hi

 

I am new to the forum and completely new to vr6 engine.

I  will need to your help to get me started. The A3 quattro 8p needs to be faster than my 2.7T30v A4 b5(close to 1000whp)

The engine I pickup is a 2.8 24v. The engine has an issue with the crankshaft so I pickup a 3.2 r32 crankshaft.

My goal is to push to the 4 digit mark but there are a lot I dont know..

 

1. Shall I bore the block to the r32 bore or will that make the block week? Can i quickly source stock bore bur r32 stroke pistons to go to 3.0 vr6? can the block take it?

2. How good are the heads? Can I get the 2.8 heads to flow more than a ported r32 head ? Is my goal easily achievable with this heads?

3. How about camshaft. Do I just get the bigger I can  get my hands on?

4. Intake manifold. is the cheap ebay ones (shorted turbo manifolds) . 

5. what is a reasonable rpm limiter on this engine? is 8500rpm doable?

[dave_424 48]

Stock internals I believe are good for 500bhp but you want to be much past that. Just some info.

2.8 block is stronger than the 3.2, best to keep the bore sizes as small as you can. Stoking might work well but the engine is already under square so the stroke is longer than the bore diameter so with high rpm you could have problems with excessive piston speed and rod angle.

I believe that when people build a 3.0 engine, by boring the 2.8 block and using the standard crank. Also cranks from a mk5 golf are cast and not forged if I remember correctly.

I've got a build thread for approx 500bhp just a couple of topics down in this section, stock internals just lowered compression but I've written it quite detailed so there might be some information in there for you.

Good luck with the build, keep us updated with what you decide to do

[the dog 3]

Thanks for the reply

 I am sticking with the 2.8 crank then. Do I need a torque late to bore the block?

I found a R32 head which I bought . As for cams do you have any recommendation?

I would like to rev to 8500rpm (gearing issues). What is needed to do this? Springs ,valves are a must. Do i need solid lifters?Where to get them?

 

How to update the timing belt tensioner so it can survive?

[dave_424 48]

The R32 crank might be the way to go, I really don't know if it becomes an issue or not. 

 

I would have thought a torque plate would be a good idea

 

I don't know what cams would be best, weather off the shelf or a custom grind.

[the dog 3]

i would also like to use the 3.2 crank but will the block with a 84mm bore, hold the 1000whp i am planing to push to?

I know Eurospec sells stroker kits for the 2.8 to 3.2 butare the ok for this much power?

Edited August 19, 2015 by the dog

[B4VR6 193]

I've seen a twin turbo vr6 picture on Facebook.

You could google and see if you can find the spec of the engine.

[RBPE 198]

Is this post actually serious given what was said?

 

Ebay and 1000whp in the same sentence?

 

I can tell you what you need but don't be thinking about using other engine parts in the bottom end of something to handle that amount of power as it's asking for trouble from the start!

 

As for what you need in general - have an entire good condition engine ready and every mm checked, stock crank can stay, forged everything else and massively modded head - 8-8.5k you can do but with the undersquare engine it's only really for the gears as you'll be flying through them on your SQS or once a week O2M boxes and peak hp will be about 7000rpm or so!

 

Twin turbo - no, don't even think about it, it's for V engines, not those with one cylinder head - with twin GT30/35's or similar which you will need, probably the latter, it'll be lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, aaaaaaaargh I've got bloody whiplash!

 

P.S. Always spec a girdle as your block is likely to rip in half with the torque!

Edited September 10, 2015 by RBPE

[RBPE 198]

p.s. As for exhaust manifold, don't think ebay, think Stainless steel, back-purged TIG welded 321 spec steel tubular done perfectly for slaving the gasses on your highly advanced map, cryogenically frozen before ceramic coated.

 

Or in other words - over a grand!

[the dog 3]

Wtf...

I am builting the engine now.

The parts i got.

2.8 block overbored to 3.2

3.2 crank

3.2 head with supertech valvetrain and twin sprinks

Solid lifters

294 duratio ,12.45m lift

Efr 9180 turbo

Girdle plate

Arp head studs

Tubular twin scroll manifold

EBAY intake manifold with 80mm dbw throttle.

Clutchmaster fx850

Adaptronic 1280 ecu.

[RBPE 198]

Wtf...

I am builting the engine now.

The parts i got.

2.8 block overbored to 3.2

3.2 crank

3.2 head with supertech valvetrain and twin sprinks

Solid lifters

294 duratio ,12.45m lift

Efr 9180 turbo

Girdle plate

Arp head studs

Tubular twin scroll manifold

EBAY intake manifold with 80mm dbw throttle.

Clutchmaster fx850

Adaptronic 1280 ecu.

 

I was questioning the sincerity of the post given the ebay log manifold and 1000whp statement being the absolute pinnacle of tuning on these engines, your other car sounds like a beast, would love to see some vids.

 

That's a good list of parts there but you're still not likely to hit 1000+whp with the EFR, you'd need a GTX42 or 45 for that although you can build the car less powerful and still be quicker than your other one given the area under the curve aspects. E85 most likely too so overspec your injectors.

 

I'll tell you now though that if you are wanting to reach those power levels you want to stick with the same block/crank really. Given the tapered design, making the cylinder walls paper thin with the massive overbores etc is bad, that's why the big power ones are either R30's or in the case of the R32, R33's as they are known as you can't go too big due to the cyl walls meeting at the bottom.

 

These engines are undersquare design so are good for high boost but lowish revs, massive rpm's are pointless save for gearing and speeds through the gears.

 

The 2.9 12V in this one made 1006ps at 6850rpms although the rev limit is around 8500rpm's and he's turned it down to about 850hp now to make it quicker. 

 

 

R30 mk1:

[the dog 3]

I was looking for 3.0 pistons (2.8 crank with 3.2 block, didnt really look into it as to what crank to use, ) but couldn't source a set fast enough.I event bought a good used 2.8 crank to use. That is why I went for high lift cams and solid lifters. 

I was only able to get a 3.2 piston set and I went for it. The block, most likely will crack but I am making a spare and if possible I want to sleeve it. Dragsters are in November so I have no time to waste waiting for parts.

 

Turbo will get me to 850-900whp . BUT I have two big turbos to swap if needed.  comp ct5x and a ct4x7875 billet  . I am installing the EFR because the car will see some road use. Also I have the suspicion  that due to the gear ratio it will be faster with the faster spooling turbo.  I am leaving all accessories on the engine (aircon-power steering etc) so I want to make as daily friendly as I can with the parts I already have . 

I dont think the gearbox will take more abuse (02q). I tried to update with the info I found online (tdi gears-darkside update) but I dont think it will last.

 

I am trying to find a way to flash or install a Haldex Gen2 performance. I got a ecumaster but I think it only work gen1. Cost is a BIG issue..I am already over budget. Anyone can help with this? 

[the dog 3]

Videos of the A4 3.0T V6 30V single turbo .

 

https://www.facebook.com/panayiotis.hadjimaltezou/videos/1023821750983568/?l=616855719536110496

 

Low boost testing at the track

 

Dynorun

 

https://www.facebook.com/panayiotis.hadjimaltezou/videos/967456443286766/?l=5814389473240057721

[RBPE 198]

Either use the 2.8 based everything or 3.2, such a massive overbore will split the walls/liner at the bottom the second any half decent power is made.

 

As for gears, I had a lengthy discussion with KAPS transmissions regarding this that we sell;

 

http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-02m.html

 

Even with all their development and materials there is still a 600-800nm limit because you just never know with boxes. A stock o2m has been used at over 1000hp with equal torque and stood up to numerous 8 second runs so I'd just be prepared to change them every now and then.

 

I also added data on the o2m gearing and box differences on the net but can't find the link at the moment but there's 3 variations, diesel one you'll have a 230mph speed limit or more, short ratio for the 4motions 160-175mph rpm limit depending and a third which hybrid's it to around 202mph at 7000rpms.

 

The oem boxes are generally rated for 350nm as well but you could try things like this which we've used; well proven on drag cars but the gears have some degree of heat treatment throughout their life either way;

http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/motor-sport/

[the dog 3]

Question

Is the 2.8 24v block the same as the 3.2 block minus the head studs? I tried googling it and I get some vwvorterex answers that it is.

If this is the case then I am 1mm overbored for the r32 due to the larger studs I am using (2.8 ones)

034 is selling conversion kits to use 2.8 studs on the r32 so how bad will it be?

 

I guess we will find out soon enough. Hopefully I will have the block ready be the end of this week. 

 

Any suggestion on porting the r32 heads, especially the exhaust ports?? 

[RBPE 198]

I don't think the block is the same casting, I think it might be a touch taller and the studs are different to the 2.8 yes. If you're using the R32 crank and 81mm pistons it'll keep the walls thick and about 3 litre's but if you're going big overbore it'll be questionable as to whether it can handle the high boost you are wanting. One way to find out though!

 

There could be an offset difference too unless that is block differences not too sure, given the price differences between the engines it's rare people will tear one down or build a hybrid for such things so never really had the chance to play with such a mix.

 

It's also not the studs I was on about for bore. The engine is a very tight V so tapers to meet at the bottom near the crank, as such there's little/no room for the cooling comparatively. As the cylinders are also close/touching it is this area that'll likely get you the highest thermal loads imho and likely to break before any other area at high boost. There are a lot of other things though that damage the engine, not least the mapping/tune so see how you get on and let us know!

 

As for porting and the like, I only tend to do light P&P work/gasket matching etc and anything major would go to CNC Heads, but it's about swirl, good air speed velocity and equal flow throughout for a road car but the power you are on about you are seemingly wanting a high rate of flow so it's a compromise thing therefore - max flow or good air speed and swirl with lesser flow.

There's some info on the porting side there from CNC and these kinds of shops have the CAD/CAM all ready to go so works out similar price if no bench is handy and they're only on the other side of town from us;

 

http://www.cncheads.co.uk/?p=833

Edited September 15, 2015 by RBPE

[the dog 3]

I would be surprise if the blocks where different.

I had both blocks next to each other and I am 99% sure the difference is bore and studs diameter.

We will know hopefully today when the r32 pistons are in the bored-out  2.8 block....

[the dog 3]

Big delays from the machine shop. He promised he will have it ready tomorrow... Lets see.. 

3.2 head is taller than the 2.8 24V. Head gaskets comparison shows no issues. 3.2 Crank is in the 2.8 block.

I only need the block now to put everything together. 

[the dog 3]

more issues with the used 3.2 crank.more delays...

Just to let everone know the 3.2 block is not taller than the 2.8.

[dave_424 48]

Let me guess, pistons come up out of the bore a bit?

[the dog 3]

Keep guessing

[the dog 3]

Keep guessing

[dave_424 48]

Not enough clearance in the block to swing the connecting rod big ends?

[RBPE 198]

Need's a minor chamfer so the crank turns properly, you need custom pistons so the wrist pin sits nearer the crown given the offset differences, 2.8 headgasket is not same as R32, few holes missing and the injectors won't sit right so you need the R32 ones and rail?

 

At least, that's what Issam found when he did his on Vortex!

[the dog 3]

There are a lot of misleading information about the Vr6 engine especially at vwvortex. I will post info with pictures here to clear the air.

No modification needed for the crankshaft. No special pistons needed. 

I already tested the engine with the R32 crank (when I did  plasti-gauge) .

 

My problem is that I can not seem to find a good r32 crankshaft. All of them have a span rod bearing (oil pressure issue?any solution?) . Its like an epidemic . I am waiting to measure another one on Monday

[dave_424 48]

When the R32/vr6 engine fails from normal use it generally is due to a spun big end bearing. That's why most people, myself included, change the big end bearings out for the black coated ones found in the R36 engine