2.8 VR6 Turbo 4motion

[stratofortress 3]

Hello everyone!

As you can read in the title, someday in the future I'd like to do an engine swap with these specs.

The donor would most likely be a Sharan 2.8 VR6 24v 4motion 6-speed manual and the engine would go into a Skoda Octavia Mk1 which is almost the same as the Golf Mk4.

I've heard that this engine in its stock form can easily hold up to 400whp.

Now, if I wanted to increase horsepower, because why not :D, to about 500-550awhp, what would I have to change in the drivetrain? For example valve springs, rods, pistons, etc.

Sorry if I've made any grammatical mistakes. I haven't been speaking English for so long. Thank you in advance and have a nice day!

Edited April 1, 2016 by stratofortress

[dave_424 48]

Connecting rods and pistons really, a good clutch is a must. Other things like valve springs and cams would help. 

[RBPE 198]

As Dave said, sort of - "drivetrain" denotes the driving parts in English - your clutch and gearbox so to speak but I assume you mean engine.

Nothing is really needed for the head except possibly cams for better VVT control/spool with timing. Over 1100hp has been had with a stock head so unnecessary really! This one to be exact so save money there in my opinion!

This car here made over 1000ps at 6850rpm on the dyno so crazy rev limits are usually to do with gears/speed only - no more power is really had at high rev limits due to engine design - you may want to change to heavy duty valve springs to stop valve float if you add revs but you can also learn to change gear faster and keep revs similar to stock!

Rods and pistons would be a good idea really for that power, stock pistons can handle power but it's the spacer/squish/head lifting aspects to watch out for. ARP/Raceware clamping forces/designs help though so that type of hardware helps. 

Rods/pistons yes - cams help for fundamental changes NA to FI and valve springs if you need more revs only. so depends on what your car is tuned/built for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squish_(piston_engine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_float

 

[stratofortress 3]

Thank you very-very much for replying!

Sorry, I thought drivetrain meant the (engine), transmission, driveshaft (if this is the thing under the car which rotates the rear wheels :D), etc. Maybe Googling these thing wouldn't have been a bad idea.

So, basically the stock engine block and the transmission/4motion system can hold this much power? Of course changing to kevlar clutch or something like that is a must have, but is it sturdy enough?

Have a nice day!

[RBPE 198]

No - stock in that sense, basically adding your turbo so lots of change -  means lowering compression - i.e. spacer/decompression plate or pistons to bring it down from 10.5:1 to the 9.0:1 or so you if you want to avoid knock under boost. Pistons best way, spacer if you can't afford pistons.

This is knock, seeing as your 1st language isn't English then I hope it helps; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Head work, like cams, can have a benefit especially under boost, but no need to go crazy with them, timing of naturally aspirated engines - those with no turbo or supercharger, is more aggressive - very different, to those under boost!

Changes there but lot's to think about in-between. What is needed is "engine bottom end" - your rods/pistons, simply due to material used!

Drivetrain is this - it's about what "drives" the vehicle, what moves it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drivetrain

Bottom end etc;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroker_kit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_block

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

[stratofortress 3]

Hello RBPE!

Yeah, you are right That's why I wrote I haven't been speaking(?) this language for so long. 

I messed up drivetrain with powertrain. I've checked the links you've sent. We call them the same in my mother language, so it's fine.

I also mentioned this is just a plan  I'm learning right now so I need time for other things first. Money is a different thing

How much power can this setup hold safely in its stock form by the way? I guess getting a new head gasket, clutch is a must have, but what other things wpuld I need? What would be the most cost effective? Is 400whp possible or is it too much to the inlets?

(There's a guy in Slovakia who is doing the same project I am planning. He has a page on Facebook. Maybe you could understand me better this way  "Octavia 1.8T VRS FWD swap 2.8 VR6T 4motion")

Sorry if I don't make any sense again And thank you for the answer!

Edited April 3, 2016 by stratofortress

[RBPE 198]

It's okay, in many respects it's right, reciprocating masses denote the drivetrain so a crankshaft could be considered that too. However, generally if I was asking on such forums I would say that drivetrain is usually the clutch, driveshafts etc and we say "bottom end" to mean the pistons, rods, crank etc in the engine.

Stock engine you probably don't really want to get too far beyond 300hp before you lower compression. ARP hardware and a spacer/decompression plate can be used if on a budget. High hp (>500hp) can be had but it's a risk, if you can afford it, rods and pistons really as well as new bearings, gaskets and ARP/Raceware hardware.

So - Raceware/ARP rod bolts and head studs plus spacer plate is the cheap way to protect your engine under boost. Keep the de-compression plate a high ratio 9-9.5:1 so as not to cause problems with the chains (spacer adds height to the engine which is how it lowers compression).

Clutches tend to go at 300lb/ft ish then an upgrade. Although quite expensive I usually say to tell people to get a Sachs SRE clutch kit with a single mass flywheel - good for 450lb/ft with good feel. Otherwise, a cheaper 4 puk/paddle/ clutch or Stage 2 hybrid will give 15-25% better clamping but the dual mass flywheels tend to be the weak spot.

This may also depend on what gearbox/clutch set up you have in the first place, I am assuming a stock O2M 4 motion gearbox?

[stratofortress 3]

Well, I don't really know. If it's a 6-speed which originally comes with this engine, then yes.

I thought these engines are capable of twice the factory power, because this applies to Volkswagen's other engines. For example 1.8T inline 4, 20V - 300hp is expensive to achieve, but it can be tuned to that level. Other example is the good ol' 1.9 TDI - not the PD this time. "Easy" 200-220hp from a factory 90hp engine. As far as I know the VR5/6 engines were intended to be diesels, so the bottom end  is made stronger because of that.

But yeah, you are right. The VR6 is a N/A engine and the ones I mentioned above came with a turbo from the factory. So I'd need some modifications to get the turbo working well. Don't misunderstand me  I'm not trying to be smarter than you or convince you that I'm right bla bla. 

Thank you again for bearing my stupid **** and for answering of course. Maybe I should start tuning something else first, like our TDI.

Have a nice day!

Edited April 4, 2016 by stratofortress

[CALICO 130]

I run a 1.9tdi pd running 197 bhp after just a remap they can go up to 300 with extra grand's spent.

[stratofortress 3]

CALICO, is it an ARL? Which came with 150hp and a 6-speed?

My friend has an AGR 1.9 TDI tuned up to ~200hp. I also know a couple of people with tuned 1.9 / 2.5 / 3.0 TDIs via a group.

These engines are awesome, but yeah, you can easily spend a couple grands on the next stage

[RBPE 198]

Petrol turbo cars have lower compression which reduces knock/detonation, the higher the compression ratio the more likely you'll get knock as a basic guide, although there is efficiency/power to be had at higher compressions, depends where knock limit is. Diesel engines are not petrol ether, they run very high compression ratio's comparatively.

As I said though, you can get >500hp on a stock engine - spacer/ARP included though and some have taken it to 700hp but you HAVE to sort knock out by lowering compression with a spacer plate at least and hardware in the critically stressed areas that are effected by the additional air density and shearing/torsional strains in those areas.

Boost and therefore knock limit dictate compression ratio but you'll not really get past a bar of boost on a bone stock engine before knock detonates your engine and that's with a very, very good tune done incrementally - so technically you could get 400hp ish but I wouldn't recommend such high boost. 

[RBPE 198]

p.s. I think Jeff what's his name Atwood is it, over at Vortex - think he works for UM in US or one of the big companies there - has many years on these engines and he did 13psi bone stock but there are very, very few people that know as much about them as him as a guide.

Edited April 5, 2016 by RBPE

[CALICO 130]

On ‎04‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 10:37 PM, stratofortress said:

CALICO, is it an ARL? Which came with 150hp and a 6-speed?

My friend has an AGR 1.9 TDI tuned up to ~200hp. I also know a couple of people with tuned 1.9 / 2.5 / 3.0 TDIs via a group.

These engines are awesome, but yeah, you can easily spend a couple grands on the next stage

Yes mines an ARL the person who mapped mine is running over 400bhp at the moment in an audi a4 3.0 diesel

[stratofortress 3]

29 minutes ago, CALICO said:

Yes mines an ARL the person who mapped mine is running over 400bhp at the moment in an audi a4 3.0 diesel

Oh, other dream project besides a Mk1 Octy VR6T 4motion is a 1986 Mercedes-Benz W123 Estate Wagon with an OM648 Superturbo  500whp 1000Nm

Just like her, though she has an OM606 "only" and mine wouldn't be so messy  Anyway this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to share it with you