V6 4MO 24V BDE Tuning

[RBPE 198]

I'm building some new Tunerpro files and want you to check some things if you're interested.

 

Firstly, this is just a few quick maps I've picked out to check and refresh myself on the system as it has been a while, I can add more obv. if there's interest.

I use Win7 32 bit on all my ecu tuning stuff as it seems the most compatible so if you check this then what system are you running? Are you experiencing any bugs like T Pro crashing (it does from time to time on mine so make sure you save things as you go along/tune if we develop this thread). Is the data showing up okay? 

 

You can download tunerpro on the link below. There's a free version and a free version which comes up with a register bit at the beginning for donations - I'm using that one as I expect to donate if I end up doing lots on it with this. It's Tunerpro RT and you can freely use it, you just have to wait until the register bit at the beginning ends after 10 seconds, then press continue.

This is basically a free bit of software that you can use to tune your car which we can go into detail later on if the thread picks up. 

 

So download Tuner Pro here;

http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadApp.htm

 

***EDIT - I forgot to add this link for a checksum plugin for Tunerpro. You might have a flash tool that has a built in CS feature (like MPPS V18), but even so and if not it might be good to have. You can ask me to check your file too if you're doing this through here. Checksums are recalculations of data so that the ecu thinks its working right in simple terms, need to recalculate every time you change something!

 

Tunerpro CS plugin:

http://www.mtx-electronics.com/prodotti/Software:tunerpro-checksum-plugins

 

Then download this rar file at the link below - this contains a BDE binary file, one found on the net 022906032BG - which is basically the data of your maps that needs defining, then there's the basic xdf I just did with a few maps in it to get things going;

https://app.box.com/s/7kllewx5gf654hdfilfyegk7kmflnugh

 

So, once you've downloaded and set up T Pro, you open a new bin (import the bin) in the menu and add the one in the rar file. Once you've done that you add the xdf (I think you import them and remember where the files are or if Tunerpro sets a file up for your ecu's/revisions just create a file in there - I forget now as I set mine up ages ago but you'll pick it up!).

 

Once you've done that then you should have a few maps defined and the values as shown in the pics in the red boxes - let me know if it is coming okay on yours and if not what system you are using, what values etc

 

 

 

 

If they are showing up like that then you are good to go in future as I build and add more xdf files. I may sell the more detailed ones and things like turbo base files etc but I'll stick up plenty of info in due course if people are interested?

 

There's a few good bits of info online already, to save you trawling through forums then these 2 are good basics to start to learn tuning, the acronyms though can be different to what are in the ME7.1.1. files but the principles for the most part are the same - I'll likely put up these basics for free anyway.

 

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5935270-UnOfficial-Eurodyne-Maestro-Tuning-Handbook

 

https://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning

Edited June 22, 2021 by RBPE

[Flylow 2]

Hi how much would you charge me for a turbo file? The engine I'm building has a 2mm spacer, forged rods and a gt35/82. How can I contact you outside of this forum?

[mininut 0]

thanks, interested for sure.  can't open the rar file though after download.

[RBPE 198]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:53 AM, Flylow said:

Hi how much would you charge me for a turbo file? The engine I'm building has a 2mm spacer, forged rods and a gt35/82. How can I contact you outside of this forum?

 

 

DIY? 

I'm not really doing anything commercial at the moment, I'm waiting on some operations and that so I'm just killing time doing some DIY stuff.

 

I'm just thinking about how I can go about things really - usually I do these for either electronics peeps with some Motronic experience or pro tuners/Motronic specialists that don't know how to go about this type of tuning as it is more difficult than your usual stuff.

 

What I tend to do is about 95% of a what you'd tend to call a pro commercial tune - then they'd stick it on the dyno to tweak or drive and fine tune some of the idle/knock/fuelling aspects but that can become addictive! I have, of course, the files they tweaked so have various fuel set ups proven to work, so chances are it'd be pretty good to start with anyway, it's just that you can set it up with about 30-50 maps/switches but ultimately the ecu has 4000+! I'd say 100-150 will get you spot on though pretty much but these are mainly just little tweaks based on things like this you could do with learning;

https://app.box.com/s/7fvt652zoqapzmfq7fv0rfufs96yv25q

 

What I'd tend to do is have you send me your oem file read from your car - I'd say this tool is probably best for folks looking into doing it as they have checksum buttons in them which you need to do each time you make some changes, is cheap enough etc;

http://www.cardiagtool.co.uk/mpps-v18-ecu-tricore-boot-programmer.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwpeXeBRA6EiwAyoJPKju_5ZqSQjqJoOXH-U_gswBDiw1JR50AB9cnSQziLKF_uZV1nt0KUhoCTmkQAvD_BwE

 

On BDE and some mk4 based R32's (C167 based ecu's) the free stuff on Nefmoto can work with them, never used them myself on these though, they've got loggers, checksums etc on there but you'll still need a device to read/write so something like above is ideal.

Once I've got your read I'd then reverse it somewhat to pick out a number of maps/functions needed, then I'd have to build up a Tunerpro definition file so you don't have to spend £2k on a similar tool, then I'd do the tweaks which will essentially be a tune minus some of the tweaks you'd need to do - if you do that by taking it to a tuner on their dyno though I'm wary of them using my work - or you can just do the tweaks yourself over time. 

 

I just tried it on this other computer and it worked okay, maybe your winrar is playing up?

Edited April 23, 2019 by RBPE

[mininut 0]

I got it working, used another version of winrar   how far off the stock bde file is your xdf in this example?  i plugged in my bde and its quite a bit "off" scales for some for some of the 5 are way off kilter!

[RBPE 198]

The maps were made on that binary so should be exact like in the pics in the first post, if your ecu is a different revision there are bytes added here and there which create the offsets each one can have. What's your full ecu code inc. revision? Any link to the oem binary to have a look?

[mininut 0]

I think mine is a revision 4... http://www.themininut.com/tmp/022906032BG0004.Bin straight from my ecu, lifted with MPPS

[RBPE 198]

*** Got a bit carried away with this but is a common problem people may face! ***

 

Okay, had a look so I'll walk people through it new to these things.....

 

What happens in this instance is that some data is not the same, even though your ecu code info comes up as the same as that other one - usually there are a few reasons;

1. Data is stacked differently - this tends to be through different ecu codes, they're all 022906032 (V6 4mo/R32) with a code letter or two after the number, then there's software numbers etc and then revisions like 0001/0002 etc. This tends to be because of the natural evolution - C167 are mk4/earlier ones and mk5 based are usually ST10 as a base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C166_family

2. Data hasn't been inputted correctly, incorrect map address etc, hi-lo instead of lo-hi for example, 8 bit map instead of 16 and vice versa or an incorrect sum and so on. 

3. The ecu uses an internal map or data that is not to be changed or is covered up depending on the different softwares you use and protections in place.

 

Number 3 is the most likely when it comes to this although I am fallible and in future I may do numerous xdf/definitions at once and accidentally input a sum wrong or similar so keep an eye out. I'll show you 2 below.

 

Here's how in TPro;

So we'll take mininut's 0004 file and load it up with the xdf I did and it comes up as he was mentioning with different values boxed in red around the map data. If you right click over a map/function in the main box like KFZWOP, it'll come up with a list, if you click "edit perameter xdf info" or F2, it'll come up with a list like this which is basically what I have to do to make each map, layout the data.

 

At the bottom I've clicked the columns bit as that is rpm for along the top axis - on the file I attached this is stated to be at 13ACD, which is correct in that one as it looks right and I've spent about 7 years on this BG file of mine! The other red box is a conversion to work out the data in a form you're used to, like rpm for example so there's a conversion bit at the top once you click it and then there's things like "item raw data", "data at address" etc. 

**** If something does not look right, usually on the axis or a figure for a single function, it is very likely to be in this area. I may, for example, write in "data at address" which should probably be right in the one I upload as it was, but the data at your address may be different, so if the ecu reads the data internally, then it doesn't need to be "data at addess". Likewise, keep an eye on "General/Rows/Columns/Conversion" and the figures/sums/data within them - I have been known to do 20+hr reversing/coding sessions and may make some of these def's at 4a.m. in the morning". ****

 

So now you know why something is showing up as it is let's take a quick look at your file. Before I do though, this is a little thing I did on, I think it was mk4 R32 a couple of years ago, basically tells you what the axis are on certain main maps and conversions;

https://app.box.com/s/240fu3aohr1cn3jc3sryqtf5jg1zx1td

 

**EDIT - by the way, there are some things I might link with my old rbpe web address in them, I do not have the domain anymore and sorry, I have never sold womens clothes so you'll need to speak to the website owners on that one! 

 

Let's use KFMIOP first - this is what the data looks like at source in ols, the general bit in the pic above;

 

The yellow box is your % axis data, attached to the map, the rest is the map data itself but the rpm is at a different location. This is what the data in that area looks like in ols as it shows you better when comparing the 2 rpm data from the same location;

 

So if you get the address data from tpro you can look at it in the hex dump "tools-advanced-hex editor" I think it is. Here I'm looking at the % data and showing you what to look for using this; so this map and axis data;

 

Will look like this in TPro; Def file.....

 

And in mininuts (called you Wings 'cause was thinking wingnut for some reason, might be someone on a vw forum with that name!?) - it will look the same unlike the rpm one;

 

So you might get these axis problems, if the def file/bin looks right when I put it up then chances are it's just a data change from either one location to another one or from "data at address" to "internal/pure" kind of thing. Although this can vary between ecu's, say for example, 2 mk4 R32's could be 022906032CN and 022906032CP which can offset the maps quite severely, these 022906032BG's with different revisions should line up a lot better.

 

Only way to do that is take a look then at the map data itself.....

 

You can see the map data itself is spot on so you know what each incorrect row/column data point is, it's the map data that's important and you either have the ecu use it's own internal data kind of thing or do a bit of reversing and add locations. I'll look into these things and try and do some more reversing on different revisions, but I'll sort out some more maps/functions evolving the xdf first so there's a better base and as there are 2 people wanting some R32 ones too.

 

That should cover any discrepancies in that respect though and I can direct people to it in future.

Edited November 1, 2018 by RBPE

[RBPE 198]

*** IMPORTANT TO ALL - save your original bins (mine and yours) and any stock xdf's seperately from anything else so you have them to go back on if there's a problem, this could be changing some data incorrectly, a bad checksum bricking your ecu etc!!! ***

Edited November 1, 2018 by RBPE

[mininut 0]

understand most of that, just the axis scaling i'm not sure about, i watched some winols training and in that it said that the axis scale is at the beginning of the map data, not same in this case?  how would you rescale say a load axis for fueling ?

Edited November 2, 2018 by mininut

[RBPE 198]

17 hours ago, mininut said:

understand most of that, just the axis scaling i'm not sure about, i watched some winols training and in that it said that the axis scale is at the beginning of the map data, not same in this case?  how would you rescale say a load axis for fueling ?

 

Depends on the maps, some are, some aren't. You'd not touch load axis for fuelling really on these, not even for turbo as there's no way to measure past ambient if you don't have the sensors. You can add custom code for LDR (boost control) but that's a lot of work changes all jumps/maps/look up points or you can make it a bit simpler with PID control.

Load axis changes like you see on S4 wiki and so on are generally for cars already FI so you can run more boost/load, on an NA car you'd not have to do a massive amount for fuel on load if any. Without adding all custom code for NA to FI on these you basically use the usual fuel maps  - so you be aware mass of the droplet of fuel, it's flight time and what lambda targets you're aiming for in LAMFA/LAMBTS. 

You need to bear in mind things like if you are running the oem manifold or a short runner as there are different air paths and/or delays so little tweaks here and there, but if trying to sort out fuel for load without being able to measure past 100%/ambient, then you leave it stock as that is all you can measure and concentrate on the mass/flight of the fuel droplet and the quantity of air it is being put with - re-scaling air maps really.

[mininut 0]

Sounds like there isn't a simple way to FI by just rescaling the axis values to include more MAF/load then add additional fuel and timing to the fuel and ignition tables for the extra values.  looks like its going to be much tougher than i though.  I calibrated using ECUTEK on my 2.5 turbo NC MX5, i have it around 400whp right now on 1 bar, that needed some work to get there but sounds like it was a walk in the park compared to FI on vr6!! 

[RBPE 198]

Well, yes and no! Load is quite a relative term so I was assuming that you meant in terms of boost, like on the S4 wiki where it's often cited - to those that don't know if you read up on KFMIOP/KFMIRL and LDRXN aspects, then it's sort of torque-load-pressure based, load itself could relate to something like the drivers requested torque or driver load, usually 0-100% or if you've got a kick-down function, slightly past 100% for example.

 

It is that kind of tuning still, fuel is still fairly straight forward with the usual maps to get the base, wide-band too, but as you can't measure pressure changes above ambient, no MAP sensor as it would commonly be referred to, then the air variation in adding a turbo (compressed air/density) still needs to be taken into account...so yes, MAF/HFM/air scaling is part of what needs to be done in that respect. Again, same with "load" but working with what you have, interpreting pressure as a variation of air mass rather than density if you will and so on.

 

You could get some basics done, a driveable tune, by doing two or three dozen map/value changes really but it's the little things after that which take time, effort and satisfying your never ending lust for the perfect tune with a lack of measuring devices!

 

When's your build due to be finished, what set up?

Edited December 9, 2018 by RBPE

[mininut 0]

I'll read up on KFMIOP/KFMIRL and LDRXN and see what i can learn   is it not possible on bde to use me7logger?

 

I plan on a gt35, 630cc injectors, 355 pump, 4" maf and a big intercooler.  I've already added a decompression plate, will make an exhaust and pretty much everything else myself.  I want to make sure i can tune it myself before i move forward.  I don't want stand alone because it won't talk to Haldex and i will lose the OE feel.  my target is circa 500whp, not far off my mx5 but with awd and a little weight.  

Edited November 6, 2018 by mininut

[mininut 0]

So I’ve been reading the s4 wiki and can see what I need to do…

 

Spend some time in "MLHFM" closed loop “1 lambda stoichiometric” and adjust MAF scaling based on STFT for MAF tube change.   Although this may be unnecessary if I increase the injector size based on the increase in MAF tube area over the existing?

I can't find MLHFM, is this specific to S4?

 

Adjust KFMIOP and increase “load limit”
KFMIOP 11x16

 

Adjust LAMFAW for requested AFR to increase fuel on boost condition
KFLAFWL 6x8
KFLAMKRL 6x6
KFLAMKR 6x6
DLAMTANS 4x1

 

Adjust KFZW for timing to reduce on boost condition, starting at a conservative number and then increase over many iterations!
KFMIOP 11x16
KFZWOPA2 11x16
KFZWOPA 11x16
KFZWOP2 11x16
KFZWOP 11x16

 

Since the BDE has VVT on both cams, adjust KFNW and reduce the overlap during on boost condition.
KFNWWUA 16x18
KFNWWUE 16x18

 

So the question is now where do I find these maps in my binary and which ones to edit from the multiples listed lol !  

 

Have i missed anything?
 

[mininut 0]

I managed to pull all the maps from TunerPro into winols using my BDE file and it looks like the axis data works fine there for those 6 map addresses.  not sure why its showing off so much in TunerPro.

Edited November 7, 2018 by mininut

[RBPE 198]

On 11/7/2018 at 12:03 AM, mininut said:

I managed to pull all the maps from TunerPro into winols using my BDE file and it looks like the axis data works fine there for those 6 map addresses.  not sure why its showing off so much in TunerPro.

 

You sure you didn't put in the other BDE file? Every bit of your read seems to be the same except for the rpm data, given that the rpm data isn't showing up when I tested it I'm pretty sure that the MPPS has used some sort of safety protocol that may cover it up so it doesn't knacker the engine or people change it accidentally and ruin their cars. You see the ecu's use specific data points for measurements, say 1 would be 1000rpm, 2 -1500rpm and so on, if you accidentally change something like this it can completely knacker it up and throw everything into chaos, say if you accidentally put 2 as 6000rpm for example, it would go - check@1k, check@6k, check@3k etc instead of linear. I assume that's why the protocols of tools do that anyway, makes sense! I don't think it shows up in another location on your file, even in winols?

 

There are some known bugs in TPro, I was unable to sort a map in the new one on this hard drive so I used an old one on another drive I did early ones with and that seems to work better. Pretty sure it's a safety protocol thing as mentioned above and you're looking at the other BDE file in ols I put up for rpm data though, unless others have changed which would be bugs and the rpm is still wrong.

 

Anyway, back to tuning....................

Completely ignore KFMIOP/KFMIRL, you don't need to touch these really unless you've sorted your tune and want to do some fine tuning later. Completely ignore the load changes mentioned too for LDRXN. LDR means "ladedruck-regelung" or whatever the correct German spelling is, basically "Boost pressure control", you have no LDR in any of the NA cars as they are not boosted so ignore all of that too. You're essentially sorting fuel for boost with the air and later on pedal changes as required whereas they can just re-scale load with their sensors and LDR maps! Take note of how the boosted cars work though which is why I mentioned those maps, you'll just have to go about it differently unlike the FI guys!

 

So it's air changes then! All of these have MLHFM maps with the exception of the Audi TT 3.2's, they seemed to get later evolutions of the ME systems, I forget it's name but different scales/related maps mean a different map layout.

On mk4 stuff you have the HFM 5 series, the high limits on them are 1109kg on your 2.8's (mk4) and 1253kg/hr I think off the top of my head on the R32's using a slightly bigger one. The mk5's are about 1464kg/hr using an HFM 6 if I remember right.

 

Your MLHFM is here;

 

You are basically going to underscale this to what boost you are looking to tune for. There is an offset 200kg/hr to take into account when you do it and I think there might even be some calculators on Nefmoto you can use with these little bits already sorted in excel. Because of the scaling aspects there are also other things to consider like low limits as they will no longer be the usual 1=1 that was in the original scales. Then there's pulsations to take into account too when you get to your fuelling.

If you want and are planning on a bigger MAF, then you can get a mk5 R32 one and I'll scale these for free for you for about 400-450hp based on one of the 3 or 4 vehicles I've done that on - in exchange for some pics and vids for a website I'm building for all these kinds f things?

 

These are the locations in your ecu;

 

Then you tweak your fuelling to suit, as an example;

 

Apart from that with what you've wrote, there is some Lambda tuning, deffo your Zundung Winkel (ZW - ignition angle) as mentioned, don't think they are those maps or the acronyms are different between S4 and VR's but yes, you're on the right lines in terms of what you need to look at!

 

I'd stay away from 630's really, you get linearisation problems with them, they usually go out after the fuel's been sorted on some of the one's I've done for owners who bought and built their cars with it. Stick with Bosch EV's really!

 

As for where you find these in your binary - well, that's why we either spend months or years building def files or end up paying a few hundred quid for one! If I can get these TPro bugs sorted you'd have enough to be getting on with.

 

EDIT: Mininuts, you can always look at the addresses at the pics I posted, the ones in English should be spot on and chances are the ones in German are too, I've just not checked them yet which I do before posting def's as well as translate etc!

Edited January 17, 2021 by RBPE

[RBPE 198]

Oh, I forgot, not sure if ME Logger works, usually does on the C167's but can be a bit of a pain to get working at times, pretty awesome when it does work though! I got it working on ME7.5 stuff but most FI I do are for mk5 based owners usually not in the UK and they tend to just use VAG-COM for logging. There are some awesome tools on Nef but some are a bit finickity, looks like 360Trev is going to do a decent GUI for pulling out maps and he seems to be looking into the ME7.1.1. stuff too for it! PRJ did one a while back but I've never really used  the tools on there much.

 

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=14857.0title=

[mininut 0]

Its the correct file 032bg0004... http://www.themininut.com/tmp/WinOLS(bde0004).ols  you can check properties  still trying to get my head around winols but getting much more familiar with it.  i still have some time to go before i drop anything on the motor so time to learn.   Also, i have zero issue with paying someone to help me get this done so i can make tweeks myself later when i add more.

 

Thanks for all this RBPE, really appreciated and refreshing to find someone that helps!

[RBPE 198]

Yeah the data is still off like in the pics on that file, must be the read securities, if the ecu is set to read the data stored within it for such maps it shouldn't make a difference, never had a problem with that on numerous VR/R32's, it's just the definition that is off and I assume if we develop TPro files like this and an emulator, it would be something to look at. (Basically the ecu uses it's stored rpm data, the def doesn't matter if you know what the map axis represents as we've gone through).

If you put it next to the one I added it should look like this just in one or two places, the rest should line up fine;

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by RBPE

[RBPE 198]

Having a nightmare with TPro myself now!  It keeps wiggin' out on me and crashing all the time, I've tried different versions of TPro, different versions of Windows, different ecu files, pc security on and off etc, it's not playing nicely! 

You only need a hex editor really if you know where certain maps/functions are so if you need to change data you can simply download HxD and modify it. It has a nice jump function, F6, which jumps from one changed/different hex value to the other. Doesn't look as pretty as winols so I'll use that to show you places within the ecu if need be, kinda like this;

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by RBPE

[mininut 0]

Thanks matey, i've pulled the files you've kindly made available.  i'm also using MPPS, think its version 16 though.

Looking at the ignition and knock stuff, am i right in thinking there are multiple maps for each coil or something ?  Also, is it possible to "fudge" the ME7 with 4motion to make the haldex perform differently or is that the job for a seperate controller/hardware plug?

 

Things are a bit slow on the golf front at the moment, I added some more power to the MX5 tune and killed 4th gear so need to get that sorted before i can move to another project, I plan to make a bmw transmission fit so it'll take more power that the motor can easily provide, sadly there is nothing off the shelf so i have to make everything!.

[RBPE 198]

MPPS V16 is a bit buggy so I've heard. you may get problems with it. Haldex is seperate to the ecu, I strated to look into it a while back but there was a lack of data.

 

There's individual cylinder and injection but outside of the main ZW maps shown you'd only really need to look into ZUESZ, notably KFSZT and KFTSRL if changing coils or bigger injectors for the most part.

 

This is the doc I copied over that last file from, ZUESZ is page 633;

http://almisoft.ru/files/Bosch ME7.3.pdf

[mininut 0]

so now even less progress with golf!  i put no2 through the block on the mx5.  bought used engine yesterday and will order forged internals over the winter.  so much for boosting my vr6.

[jojobar 5]

So happy i found this post. Can't wait to read every word like 10 times 👍