Neuspeed Anti Roll

[kempj1 0]

Hello folks,

I have a completely standard '97 VR6 which is lovely. Id like to increase the fun factor but not make it less comfortable. I was thinking about putting a Neuspeed 28mm anti roll bar on the back end to make it a bit more tail happy.

Does anyone have experience of how this would affect things on a standard chassis - particularly without uprating the front ARB.

Another question - can anyone recommend quality replacement shocks which have pretty much the same charactaristics as standard ones?

Any advise re the above would be much appreciated. All the best,

James

[purple highline monster 0]

why would you want the back end to fly about???? mine does it on standard arb`s under enthusiastic driving and breaking and i dont like it!!!!

[kempj1 0]

Mine feels like it wants to plough on straight ahead when pushing it through tight corners - particularly when it's wet. I'd rather have to correct oversteer than to helplessly career off on a tangent.

I don't want it to fly about - just want it loose a bit more like my mate's 306 GTi-6.

[purple highline monster 0]

best to just put a decent suspension kit on it first, any ARB will work in conjunction with firmer suspension far better than on its own, if you find your loosing the back end in corners you are either going to fast for the corner or conditions! slow in fast out is the best way to corner mate, set the car up in the right gear and speed for the type of corner first not halfway through! if you get it wrong your going to have a big repair bill or kill yourself!!

[kempj1 0]

I know - firmer suspension will make it more sporty. My old GTi was like a go kart, but do a few thousand miles across europe and you'd be fed up with it. I don't really want the VR any firmer than it is.

I didn't say I'm loosing the back end in corners - I'm saying the handling's not balanced at the moment. It's not tail happy at all, and will understeer if put under pressure. It feels like there's too much roll on the back end.

I've read a couple of threads on here where people suggest putting arb's on before dropping the suspension becasue arb's make more of a difference to handling. I like that way of thinking becasue it would fit in with my requirement of not toughening up the shocks&springs.

Just need to know if anyone's tried fitting a rear ARB without dropping the suspension first.

Also anyone have any ideas of manufacturers of quality replacements for standard shocks. (certainly not more than 20% stiffer than standard).

[HazelVR6 0]

I understand your comments about the handling, but in all honesty a lot of the problem is to do with a heavy engine up front. VR6's are not well balanced front to rear (compare the size of brake discs front to back) and because of this when you enter a corner the weight transfer to the front is just too great to make it a great handling FWD car. You mention your mates 306, but that is relatively light four pot engine in a chassis which is known for lift off oversteer (same as the old 205 1.9's). You could stiffen up the suspension to ease the weight trasfer, but the trade off against ride quality may not help you on long journeys. Changing ARB's is more helpful when trying to dial out/in understeer/oversteer. Making a VR6 oversteer at the back would just make it dangerous. As mentioned previously change your driving style to suit the balance of the car (and save your tyres!!).

[purple highline monster 0]

koni shocks and eibach springs are supposedly the best compromise (comfort/handling) set up on a vr, obviously brand new vw items will give you factory standard, (the shocks on mine were green, they did different colours for dif years) they are all boge with vw springs, as said a peugeot is a lot lighter car & power per ton bhp is totaly different in the little tin pot frog mobile! i have fitted FK coilovers on my vr6 and it handles superbly and ride comfort although firmer than standard (barge like standard!) it isnt harsh or uncomfortable on a long journey, and it only cost

[kempj1 0]

Take your point regarding the weight up front - although it does seem to help with putting the power down. The 306 has loads of lift off oversteer, which I think is fantastic - 'you can adjust it on the throttle'. I'd like a bit more of this in the VR6. The Neuspeed is adjustable, so I'd like to get some idea of how much difference the adjustments make. If I find there's too much oversteer and I adjust the ARB to be less harsh will it actually make much difference?

My old GTi was hard work, and I nearly lost the back end on the Nurburgring. This was mainly because of 'snap oversteer' caused by very stiff shocks at the rear. The ARBs were standard. What I would like to achieve with the VR6 is to make it generally more tail happy so that lift off oversteer can be induced quite predictably.

Is there any reason why Peugeots can oversteer but not be thought of as dangerous, but if I try and get a VR6 to do this it will be dangerous? I'd have thought having more weight at the back (like a 911) would make tail happy motoring troublesome, but having a few extra pounds up front shouldn't make oversteer more dangerous.

Let me know what you think - this is interesting.

My other thought is about giving the front wheels a bit more -ve camber - what sort of difference do you reckon this might make? I don't like cars that push their nose out on the limit and I'd like to stop my VR from doing it.

All the best, JK

[purple highline monster 0]

i am afraid a lot of the points you mention are characteristics of the mk3 vr6, sure they can be fettled and improved on but its gonna take you some time and effort + money to achieve it, i have only ever owned volkswagens and every single one (if provoked!) would start to break away on the front under severe pace, the only exception was my golf Rallye which was a complete animal with grip to match the 4 wheel drift was awesome and easily controlled by the throttle, alas 2 wheel drive front wheel drive cars tend to be less predictable and under and oversteer under different conditions, i am not sure which suspension set up peugeot run on the rear of the 306? is it seperate spring and shock? "live" rear axle?, vw have only recently gone to this sort of set up at the rear and upto mk3 have always been macpherson route, changing camber may help but it will knock the bollox out of your tyres and your car will look like a dolomite sprint! oversteer isnt dangerous if you know the point its gonna happen! just getting the feel for the car even set up as it is you will become more confident with it! as i said i sold my golf rallye which was running 220 bhp had H&R coilovers 4 wheel drive huge brakes (for a mk2) and all the gucci bits the rallye came with as standard, quick rack etc and it flattered your driving as it was so hard to get it to break away, i got in my completely standard vr6 and i had to learn to drive again!!! far too soft and very "wiggly" under braking from higher speeds hence why i had to change to the coilovers! even my wife said how unsafe and wallowy it felt!! now it has given me more confidence to press on through bends but still not as much as my beloved Rallye !sad

[kempj1 0]

I understand that it's nigh on impossible to make a car handle exceptionally and still be a relaxed comfortable ride. You've begun to convince me that it may be better to put new springs/shocks or even coilovers on there. The problem is though, I know that this will give it better manners and much more grip - but I'll probably want to whack an ARB on the back after I've done all that to try and adjust the balance.

I was thinking about adjustable koni's with eibachs, or coilovers. With your coilovers what adjustments can you make? - can you adjust hardness as well as height, and are the dampers adjustable as well? How quickly&easily are they adjusted?

I like the idea or cruising comfortably across the continent and getting to the Nurburgring - then tightening up the dampers and dialling in a bit more oversteer by adjusting the ARB. But it would be a nightmare if it takes 2 hours to do it!

I've never used Koni top adjustables (my old GTi had the ones that you adjust before fitting) - do these have numbered settings so that you can be sure of the correct balance when adjusting them?

So many questions....

Thanks for the advice!

[kempj1 0]

I understand that it's nigh on impossible to make a car handle exceptionally and still be a relaxed comfortable ride. You've begun to convince me that it may be better to put new springs/shocks or even coilovers on there. The problem is though, I know that this will give it better manners and much more grip - but I'll probably want to whack an ARB on the back after I've done all that to try and adjust the balance.

I was thinking about adjustable koni's with eibachs, or coilovers. With your coilovers what adjustments can you make? - can you adjust hardness as well as height, and are the dampers adjustable as well? How quickly&easily are they adjusted?

I like the idea or cruising comfortably across the continent and getting to the Nurburgring - then tightening up the dampers and dialling in a bit more oversteer by adjusting the ARB. But it would be a nightmare if it takes 2 hours to do it!

I've never used Koni top adjustables (my old GTi had the ones that you adjust before fitting) - do these have numbered settings so that you can be sure of the correct balance when adjusting them?

So many questions....

Thanks for the advice!

[purple highline monster 0]

The FK KONIGSPORTS are height and firmness adjustable via the top of the strut like the other top adjust kits around, and as far as i am aware they have notch click settings same as koni standard stuff, some of the guys on here have this kit, mine is just the high sport version with no firmness ajustment just height, but that said it is still a good kit, obviously for track use the more adjustment you have the better you will be so the KONIGSPORT kit would be a better option in that respect, that added with an arb would be a major improvement i would think and give loads of scope to play with set up, the time to raise and lower the car is around an hour it is very simple to do, the adjustment is just as normal with a few clicks left or right on the strut top under bonnet, the FK konigsport kit is around

[VRmonster 1]

that was a pretty bad description there. the hight adjustment means jacking up the car, removing wheels and adjusting the sring carriers on the suspension legs with c spanners. and will probably take an hour or so if the threds on the coilovers are clean.

it is the damping/rebound stiffness that is adjusted via the top. and this takes a matter of seconds to adjust, but weeks to fine tune.

[kempj1 0]

Seems like too much hassle (& expense!) to me - do Eibach do a range of different springs? I'm really not too bothered about lowering the car very much. Ride quality is of huge importance. Are there any other lowering springs that have a reputation for keeping ride quality reasonably gentle?

I'd imagine a set of stiffer shocks would probably make a load of difference in handling regardless of what springs they are damping. When Koni's are on their softest are they about as soft as standard dampers?

Stiffening up the front dampers a bit and putting a fatter arb on the back might make a hell of a difference to both the turn in and the balance.

Does anyone know if it's straightforward to fit Neuspeed rear bars with a fairly standard tool kit?

[purple highline monster 0]

that was a pretty bad description there. the hight adjustment means jacking up the car' date=' removing wheels and adjusting the sring carriers on the suspension legs with c spanners.

[/quote']

sorry i thought it sounded clear enough to any competent person familiar with coilovers its hardly rocket science is it?

[kempj1 0]

Yeah - I got it & I'm not a rocket scientist.

Doctor of brain surgery though ;-)

[FishWick 21]

I understand that it's nigh on impossible to make a car handle exceptionally and still be a relaxed comfortable ride.

Wrong.

If you want superb ride comfort and sublime handling, look no further than H&R 'comfort' coilovers and Eibach ARBs.

I've tried numerous setups of numerous VWs over the years and that is, in my opinion, the best you can get for a daily usable car.

Let's break it down.

Why H&R's coilovers, or any coilovers, aren't they hard and unforgiving?

H&R comforts are valved and sprung specifically for each application. There's no bump, rebound or damping adjustment, H&R designed the kit to simply not need it, thanks to car specific parameters. None of this 'one kit fits all' nonsense, there's no such thing.

The H&R springs are perfect (world renowned for their quality) and H&R don't make dampers, so they chose arguably the best dampers in the world to base their kits on, Bilstein PSS inverted (bumpstops built into the bottom of the strut) and oversized gas pressure dampers. You simply will not believe how good they are, near stock ride quality allied to incredible handling.

The massive dampers absorb bumps like you wouldn't believe, especially close packed bumps on really shitty B roads.

Why coilovers?

How about corner weighting? That is to say you set them to a rough height (I recommend 60cm from floor to arch) and then you get someone to measure the driver's side arch distance with you sat in the car and with a full tank, then you raise the driver's side accordingly. That way the car is perfectly balanced under nearly all conditions, this is how they setup BTCC touring cars.

Coilovers aren't just about slamming, they're about infinite adjustability to fine tune the chassis.

OK, so they're good, why Eibach ARBs?

Neuspeed ARBs are good because they're adjustable and are rose jointed to allow natural axle movement. But, they need maintanence to stop the rose joints seizing and they're, frankly, too feckin big fo road use.

They Eibachs hit the perfect compromise, 25mm rear and 22mm front. It's the front one being a modest increase in size that keeps the ride comfort acceptable. ARBS increase spring rate as the wheels compress. If the driver's side wheel compresses over a bump, then the spring rate on the pass side increases markedley, and in the case of the Nspeed 25mm front, it makes the car very skittish over B roads.

The Nspeed rear with a standard front ARB is a good compromise, just don't use a pair of Nspeeds.

You can use a pair of Eibachs (cheaper than Nspeed) safely as the front is tamer, and they're fit and forget.

So that's cool, how much?

Well, as they say, you get what you pay for. H&R comforts are

[kempj1 0]

Thanks for the input - that's got me thinking. Unfortunately I can't justify spending out on coilovers. However, it's good that someone sees the addition of the Neuspeed on the rear as being valid without having to get a new front one.

Konis & H&R springs might be my way forward then. I need some springs that are quite gentle unless compressed over an inch or two.

Couple more questions :

Are H&R good for this or would eibach be a better compromise? And how does the damping of the Koni TA's (on soft) compare to standard OE damping?

[VRmonster 1]

nice write up kev. i went for eibach arb for that exact reason, i was advised that the neuspeed front was overkill. i decided on fk coilovers though as a lot of people say they have the best comfort yet can be stiff as you like, lol. and at

[BigSi 0]

James,

I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as some as the others that have replied to this link but I have fitted the Neuspeed ARBs to my car with standard suspension set-up.

They made a big improvement!

I fitted 25mm on front & at the advice of Awesome GTI went for a 25 on the rear as well (they advised that the 28 is just too much).

I thought exactly the same about the handling of the car as you mentioned early on in this link. I have never been in a 306 GTI 6 or an old 205 GTI so I can't compare (infact my VR is the only performance car that I have ever had the chance to drive long enough to get to know its characteristics).

After fitting the ARBs (rear on it's stiffest setting) I found that I got just a small amount of lift off oversteer, but only when really push it on. Straight away I felt a lot more comfortable driving the car hard, as it just seemed to feel what I can only say as 'it felt like I wanted it to feel'.

I lost no comfort at all (I changed to 16" wheels from 15" at almost the same time & that made a bigger change to the comfort than fitting the ARBs).

The other issue I had with the car was it sat low at the rear. I was going to replace with standard but when I looked into the prices I decided to go for a kit. Like you I do a few miles so I really like the comfort & didn't want anything harsh. Again I hadn't been in any cars with coilovers or Eibach/Koni set up to see if they were, as some people say, too harsh. I took my time reading lots of conflicting reviews to try and figure out which one to go for and in the end went for a GMAX kit (only cost

[NickRStorm 0]

I have adjustable Koni's & Eibach springs on mine. It takes about 10-15 minutes a corner to adjust the ride hight (assuming the locking rings aren't siezed!). Damping is dead easy & takes seconds per corner at the front. The rear is a bit trickier as the parcel shelf mounting is in the way.

One of the best ways to sharpen up the front end is to run more camber than standard, but it will cane your tyres!

[kempj1 0]

Yes I did that on my old MK2 - more neg camber and some toe out - gives it a really sharp nose, but wrecks the tyres!

Does anyone have experience of Bilstein OE Shocks?

I hear they are about 15% stiffer than the regular shocks. I spoke with a local garage and they said Bilstein OE shocks work well with H&R -30mm springs to give sharper handling, but comfy ride. [these are not Bilstein Sport, or HD shocks].

Do you think the shocks will be stiff enough to damp the stiffer spings ?