Supercharging - the long journey

[FishWick 21]

Some of you may have been following my supercharging exploits in the long forgotten GB thread. My Rado was fitted with a stage 2 (8psi) VF Engineering kit in July last year and it wasn't without it's issues.

8 months on, an OBD2 conversion and freshly remapped by Vince at Stealth, we finally have the numbers I paid for !lol 290hp and just shy of 260 pounds.

Power -

Torque -

For comparison, I've included the GIAC chip's figures which comes with the kit. Both runs are one a hot engine with my water injection (10% pure methanol, 10% methanol based screen wash & 80% deionised water) running. The GIAC chips have way too much advance. The OBD2 data logs showed 12.5 units of knock regulation retard (about 8 degrees in old money) at 5500rpm whereas Vince's map never went higher than 1.5 units (about half a degree!). With intelligent mapping, less is definitely more as Vince's map produces more power 500rpm sooner, which is only about 6.5-7psi of the available 8.

The dip at the top with Vince's map is the limitation of the standard cams apparently, or maybe the standard fuel pump, but it proves there's no point entertaining GIAC's 7100rpm rev limit, so Vince dropped it to 6800rpm for safety.

The map is 'safe' map to account for hot weather and lower grade fuels, no extra advance was applied to work in the water's favour. The water ensures the power doesn't drop as the charger gets hot and to prevent knock. The first run with the GIAC made 282 with the engine being cold, but by the 3rd run, it had dropped to 266hp, so just goes to show heat and too much advance is your enemy when it comes to forced induction.

So..... a big shout to Vince for his excellent mapping work and I can heartily recommend the VF stage 2, so long as you bin the GIAC chip get it mapped by Vince 8)

From 3500 onwards it is utterly relentless, pulls like a machine possessed

[dubloke 4]

nice one kev, was it a custom map that vince used or based on the dastek? still to get my stage two charger on and have had all sorts of advice and do's and dont's that it makes the whole thing a bit of a minefeild when putting it all together yourself! i wont be going down the obd2 route as i also have the schrick vgi, so it' would be an expensive route given it can produce as much power on obd1 management, but i understand the benefits of the later electronics! any advice you can pass over chief?

[Eat this 2]

u have every mod i want lol

what cams are recomended to keep it pulling high up? do 268s work well and how much is water injection?

[wayne_1@tiscali.co.uk 27]

obd1 is ok but if u want to go stage 3 intercooled u have to go obd2 as no software is available for obd1 it is possible but expensive remapping ive gone the same route as kevhaywire and doing my own obd2 conversion and got a shrick obd2 adapter as mines obd1 as stage 3 is only available for the golf but the software on obd2 cant be beat and thats from my best mate raj at ns racing and vince at stealth and u are supposed to gain 10-15bhp just on the obd2 conversion £250 u can get complete obd2 set up

[Eat this 2]

what sort of figures does stage 3 give?

is the stock 3 bar fpr upto it and are stock injectors ok?

anything else need changing for stage 3?

[FishWick 21]

Well....not sure if I should say this really, but Vince did a Stage 3 (10psi with intercooler) Golf a couple of weeks ago and it made less power than mine. Vince and I are pretty much in agreement that for every day use, the Stage 2 is the best bet.

As for cams, the standards are quite restrictive at the top end but the the standard intake arrangements (manifold, throttle etc) seem fine....and I'm running the standard VAG exhaust and a milltek cat, which again aren't as restrictive as people think, well, the Corrado VR system is certainly well up to 350+, not sure about the Golf system.

Schrick 248 SC (forced induction) cams are supposed to be quite good but Vince reckons they're only good for about 10-15hp and not good value. 268s with FI take a lot of work to get right, but should give the top end pull. But bear in mind hydraulic tappets don't like going over 7K frequently and I don't think the engine does either tbh, so it's better to produce the peak power in the 6K region.

Stage 2 will need a 4 bar regulator and a 4 bar pump from the Corrado, or a Walbro intank uprated one. My VAG 4 bar pump seems up to the job, just, but I've got a Walbro on standby, just in case.

We don't know what can be achieved with OBD1 yet as Vince hasn't mapped one yet, but mine only kicked out 245hp when it was OBD1, which isn't a good sign. OBD2 is far superior but it has issues of it's own, but are easily fixed thanks to Vince's insight and technical knowledge.

I'd recommend starting with Stage 2 and if you feel you need more, look at reducing the compression ratio.

The V9 is capable of 20psi but unfortunately the VR isn't without a lot of work.....

[Petesvw 0]

Handy to know kev, stage 2 it is then : )

[wayne_1@tiscali.co.uk 27]

that stage 3 golf i drove with sparks one of ns racing customers cars it ran bad as fucked fuel pump put uprated one in and mapped it got 315bhp at stealths vince is the nuts raj has told me once ive gone stage 3 its got to go to vince to get the most out of it as the stage 3 chip is basically to get the car driveable but not unleash its full potential and mine will be running 248s cams

[vwman 0]

This all sounds good im looking to charge my 1995 vento looks like there could be a group by again this year . i belive my car is obd1 what would i need change to get it up to obd2? Also as its done 100k ive located and bought another golf with 80 k with a heavy rear end but a peach engine and box. i was looking at doing a full engine rebuild as im a car tec . including forged rods and pistions and new cams so i can get some big hp . this is going to take some time to do as i know its going to be costly . any input into the best route to take would be ace because u boys seem to know alot about tuning , u talk about vince where does he work would he be the best person to talk to . thanks for any help

[vwman 0]

just spoted the stealth link

[FishWick 21]

that stage 3 golf i drove with sparks one of ns racing customers cars it ran bad as fucked fuel pump put uprated one in and mapped it got 315bhp at stealths vince is the nuts raj has told me once ive gone stage 3 its got to go to vince to get the most out of it as the stage 3 chip is basically to get the car driveable but not unleash its full potential and mine will be running 248s cams

Yeah it was the one on 17s with TAR-OX brakes. So he got it sorted in the end then? 315 is a great figure, 10 more than what VF quote. Anything else done to it?

Stage 3 isn't available for the Rado yet, not sure if I'll go for it though. 290 is enough! Wouldn't mind an intercooler though, but I don't like the way VF run the pipes....right above the exhaust?!

[wayne_1@tiscali.co.uk 27]

stage 2 head and 248 cams with a hand built straight through exhaust on that p reg vr6 vf are only making stage 3 for golfs with obd2 as theres no demand in america fo corrados ive also got a charge cooler which i will be putting at some point but im going to run the intercooler first and see what happens but your car kevhaywire could be stage3 as all u have got to do is change pulley 10psi ideler bracket uprated fuel pump and remap as the aquamist will act as a inter cooler or chargecooler that what guy hartleys got on his rado extra 20-30 bhp wont hurt

[FishWick 21]

Yeah guy's is 3.0 with low compression JE pistons, makes about 312hp I think.

I might do stage 3, I'll see how it goes over the summer with stage 2 and aquamist. It pulls like a feckin train as it is, would 20hp more at the top end be really noticable for the extra outlay?

I think VF want $75 for a pulley and I've already got a walbro pump and the idler bracket, so it should just be a case of fitting the pulley and getting Vince to map it.

This is the perfect setup for a Rado though....awesome....

[wayne_1@tiscali.co.uk 27]

see how your 1/4 mile times are as at santa last year gti fest iwas getting 14 and 14.1 and a 13.9 back of car gutted and engine was totally standard except shrick manifold and v9 stage 2with vf mounts and mine wasnt mapped just normal stage 2 chip on obd1 so your car should feckin move 13? 1/4s easy what we should do is santa pod gti fest in july all the charged vrs should race one another on the strip and then we can see who the god of a charged vr is be a good laugh to seperate the men from the boys

[Eat this 2]

Yeah guy's is 3.0 with low compression JE pistons' date=' makes about 312hp I think.

I might do stage 3, I'll see how it goes over the summer with stage 2 and aquamist. It pulls like a feckin train as it is, would 20hp more at the top end be really noticable for the extra outlay?

I think VF want $75 for a pulley and I've already got a walbro pump and the idler bracket, so it should just be a case of fitting the pulley and getting Vince to map it.

This is the perfect setup for a Rado though....awesome....

[img']http://www.schimmelperformance.com/images/picturepagepictures/DSCN0730.JPG

wheres the inlet manifold??

if its runnin itbs im gonna wet myself !lol me wanty BIIIIG time !lol !lol

[mightyvr6 0]

The inlet is the big black thing at the front of the engine. Its called a short runner or log manifold.

[sparkz 0]

The inlet is the big black thing at the front of the engine. Its called a short runner or log manifold.

Ok, where do i get one of these from?? (i have an idea!!)

[mightyvr6 0]

C2 Motorsports sell them.

[Eat this 2]

DOESNT IT COMPROMISE LOW DOWN TORQUE??

[FishWick 21]

That one is from www.schimmelperformance.com and costs about £850 shipped. Bill Schimmel's is a proper casting and is funnelled (starting from cyl 1) so that the gas speed is equal across all 6 (unlike the C2 one) and also has clearance for the alternator, which some don't. The throttle is on the right, no individual TBs... that would be mega bucks!!

I just love the way it's been designed to fit around the engine without having to move anything other than the battery (if you want the charge cooler). Top work.

Bottom end torque shouldn't be affected because the intake pipe is humungously long and in that example, the intake temperature will be massively lower thanks to the CC and you can also ramp up the low rpm ignition advance to take advantage of that, so restoring, if not improving low end torque.

It's neat. Gets the intake well away from the heat of the exhaust and it's so much easier for ICs and CCs having the throttle on the right hand side.

[Eat this 2]

cc = charge cooler??

whats the diff between intercooler and chargecooler btw?

[wayne_1@tiscali.co.uk 27]

intercooler is cooled by air chrgecooler is cooled by water

[FishWick 21]

Charge coolers have an internal matrix with water flowing around them. The inlet pipe passes through this matrix and is cooled by the water jackets surrounding it. It works in exactly the same way as the engine's water jackets and radiator. Heat is drawn away and cooled by a small radiator mounted at the front.....and that's the downside of CC's....they need a pump, water/glycol supply, hosing, a radiator and a fan if you want to get that bit extra. Very well designed ones are at best equal to an intercooler, but poorly implemented ones struggle to lower temps below 45-50 deg C. For simplicty I'd always go intercooler than charge cooler. That Corrado CC is a good one because it's located well away from the heat of the engine and will give good results, but ones like that are very expensive.

[J5KE F 0]

Ok guys, i'm booked at stealth on friday morning, takin a long slow drive as mine is back on the road for the season and still running rich.

The stage 3 kit will answer a few peoples questions! I have decided to keep the schrick also and the n2O.. Vince reakons he can sort it! From reading this post i'm hopefull.

[dubloke 4]

still a very "busy" engine bay going on there jake, hope all the effort pays off, would be nice to see a charged car able to kick the arse of some of the turbo examples out there starting to appear!